Why West Virginia Is Gutting Its Public University

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Now, it’s all about education, of course, as well, and higher education has become a flashpoint in the American culture wars, and a prime target for government downsizers. So, it was no surprise when West Virginia University announced plans to slash majors and cut courses in order to shrink its budget. But what does that actually mean for the students who are seeking a reasonably priced education? “Atlantic” Magazine writer Michael Powell joins Michel Martin to discuss his latest article, “What Happens When a Poor State Cuts its Public University?”

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MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Michael Powell, thanks so much for talking with us.

MICHAEL POWELL, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: Oh, my pleasure.

MARTIN: So, you decided to take a deeper look at the big cuts implemented at West Virginia University. Now, cuts to language programs, math programs, a bunch of degree granting programs. What made you take a look at it?

POWELL: I was struck when it came out that — I mean, of course, like everybody, by the breadth and depth of the cuts. But also, that — you know, I mean, I’m familiar enough with West Virginia to know. I mean, this is a kind of a working-class state that’s had, you know, all sorts of, problems. I mean, you know, diabetes, drug use, rapidly aging population, loss of youth. And this felt, like a — you know, I mean, I guess in that way, felt like a deep blow and something worth really looking at. And also, because you’re hearing increasingly of both public and private colleges that are making this sort of very deep cuts. And I guess lastly, I mean, because it is — there are so many kind of first generation and working-class students at this place, you know, I thought it did raise interesting questions of equity. You know, what happens when a school that serves the kind of larger sweep of America or of West Virginia makes this sort of cuts, what happens to opportunities?

MARTIN: So, the thing that got a lot of people’s attention is the cuts to the language programs. They’re really shrinking the modern language department to the point where most people won’t be able to get an advanced degree in those languages is — that’s kind of the reality of it. But what are some of the other cuts that perhaps didn’t get as much attention initially?

POWELL: I mean, there was public health, there was graduate programs in math, there are graduate programs in conservation management, education, administration English took some cuts. One of the things that I was kind of struck by is they literally could not offer Shakespeare classes this spring — either — in either the fall of the spring semester because they were too badly stretched. So, I mean, these cuts, you know, kind of extended over a pretty broad range of areas.

MARTIN: So, you actually had a chance to interview the president of West Virginia University, E. Gordon Gee. He talked about this back in 2020. He kind of laid out his goal here. And I do want to mention that that he has a pretty extensive background in university administration. I mean, he’s led, you know, marquee institutions like Ohio State, Brown. He’s been around. So, what is it that he said was wrong that this strategy is designed to fix?

POWELL: His argument is that there is this demographic cliff that universities are approaching in the next couple of years, that is where you see declining birth rate and fewer kids of college age. So, you’re going to see fewer and fewer of them applying to universities and that this is going to lead to a real, his favorite word is, existential crisis for higher education. He also points to polls both nationally and in — within West Virginia that show declining confidence by the citizenry in large in the need for higher education. You know, where it used to be in this, say, mid 60, 70 percent. Now, I think he points to polls and show it as low as like 25, 30 percent. And he says, look, you know, the combination of these things require are, if you will, a tsunami that’s approaching. We need to get ready for that. And therefore, that we need to both cut and at the same time, we need to kind of serve, as he loves to talk about his students and families as customers, that we have to kind of customize the education for them. So, we don’t want to have as many required courses. We want to be able to let them take other courses. We want more — and this is where it gets a little contradictory at the same time — kind of targeted on health, business, engineering, things that will, he says, serve the economy of West Virginia.

MARTIN: You know, we’ve heard lots of criticisms of universities in recent years that they’re too expensive. That they don’t serve the economy’s needs. That they are elitist. You know, that they basically are — they’re doing too much. Are Mr. Gee — is President Gee’s objections that there’s a market mismatch, that students are coming out unprepared for the opportunities that exist and that that’s a problem, or is it primarily economic, that the state can’t afford it or is it primarily ideological, that he doesn’t like what the kids are teaching or coming out and thinking?

POWELL: He certainly does not frame it in ideological terms. He argues a bit of a mismatch. He’s talked a lot about the need to keep these students in state. And, you know — and to match them up better with jobs in the state. It gets a little confusing because at some point, I mean, West Virginia’s economy is in a bad way. It lacks, you know, basic — I mean, there’s a great shortage of math teachers, which makes it rather ironic that they’re cutting their math program back. There is — you know, there’s a shortage of biology teachers. I mean, there’s shortages kind of across the board, and it seems to me within a place like West Virginia, certainly this is something that critics talk about is it’s great to try as much as one can to keep students in state, but at some level if you’re, again, serving the needs of those kids, you’re going to allow their aspirations to take them where they might. And as one of the young women that I was talking to, who’s, you know, looking — wants to work for the foreign service. And she took a lot of language — you know, a lot of language study, a lot of foreign study, you know, maybe she does leave, maybe she comes back 20 years, 30 years from now and teaches at, you know, WVU. I guess what I was struck by looking at is it’s not so linear, right? It’s not like, well, you know, if we come up with a way to keep this young person here now at the age of 21, they’ll be here when they’re 50, or if they go away when they’re 21, they won’t come back in 15 or 20 years if there are the opportunities there.

MARTIN: So, obviously, you’re skeptical of his approach, but let’s sort of take it at face value. He says that the — this is a public university. It depends on public dollars, and it just needs to be in better alignment with the needs of the state and to be a better steward of the state’s resources. I mean, you point out in your piece that, you know, most state legislatures are spending less per student than a decade ago. Throughout higher education, total student enrollment is declining. So, doesn’t he have a point there?

POWELL: Well, he might. I mean, the thing is that actually state universities, flagship universities in particular, are actually better position than a lot of privates. I mean, if you wanted to — if I did the same piece on a good small little private university in West Virginia or anywhere else, they might well be facing kind of existential problems, right? They don’t have the endowments of an Ivy League school or a Stanford or something like that. Their tuition runs 65, 000, 75,000 a year. You know, there you’ve got a real problem. West Virginia University, you can still go soup to nuts for about 22,000 a year. It’s one of the lowest, and that is that includes room and board. So, that’s one of the lower price tags. In fact, perhaps the very lowest for a state university in the country. One could counter that actually a state university like West Virginia, like Kentucky, which is a neighbor next door, like Ohio, which is a neighbor next door, where they’ve seen increasing enrollment, that those places are sort of uniquely well positioned to survive a — you know, a demographic and enrollment decline nationally.

MARTIN: Some of the programs that are being cut would seem to be ones that the state actually does need. I mean, you’ve pointed out that he made deep cuts to the math department, but there’s a shortage of math teachers in the state, as there is really in most places around the country. So, that’s one thing. But then also in educational administration. I mean, education is another thing that the state really needs. But the other thing that you pointed out is this little quirky program in puppetry, which — that you, you know, took pains to highlight and you said that they’ve had 100 percent postgraduate employment going back for years and that some of these — the graduates go on to work at, you know, major companies like entertainment and Disney and all these other sorts of places. So, one of the sources of skepticism that I detected from your piece is that you thought, well, Gee, if you really want to match sort of the need with the educational experience that would seem to be — some of that would be counterintuitive. Presumably you put that question to President Gee. What did he say?

POWELL: He keeps saying that, look, these are the sort of tough choices we have to make. I kept looking for it to hold together. So, wait a minute. You know, we’re cutting. We’re trying to aim at, for instance, meeting the needs of West Virginia. Fine. I mean, it’s an economically, you know, kind of storm-tossed state. It needs help. But again, so you’re — you want to increase your engineering program that he wants to, wants to put money into that. He wants to — he’s putting big money into a neuroscience center. But at the same time, he’s cutting his math graduate program. You know, and there’s an interplay between those. And if you’re a top neuroscience student, and there’s a lot of competition, you know, from schools that are in, you know, major cities and that sort of thing, it seems to me paradoxical that you would cut programs that are, if you will, kind of cousin or adjacent programs. And I didn’t really get a good answer for from him on that.

MARTIN: Talk about sort of your skepticism for a bit. What do you really think is going on here? Like you kind of — this is — there’s a — there’s the subtext to this. And what do you think the subtext is? Is it that That he — there’s sort of a suspicion that, you know, this is not for you, that you’re — you know, as a — if you grow up in West Virginia, if you go to school there, then you’re not supposed to have nice things? I mean, what’s — you know, I mean, what’s the subtext here? Yes.

POWELL: I think that is the implicit question there, is, well, what are we saying? So, if you’re at the — if you’re born in Los Angeles or San Francisco, and you have — you can access the University of California system, which is, you know, a pretty magnificent educational edifice, I mean, it has its problems, but it’s a — you know, it offers a great buffet of courses and schools to go to. And if you’re from West Virginia, you’re going to have a greatly telescoped sort of set of choices. And I do think that that raises real questions. I mean, this is public — you know, the public university system, and I’m myself a product of it, is — you know, is I think is of our one of our glories and it’s not been so class stratified, right, where — I mean, the notion is that if you go to a state university, you can get — you can feel your brain come a fire. And I think that it’s worth worrying when a state university system, as President Gee is, you know, has done and here, has decided to kind of, well, pull in its fangs. And I guess that was one of the things that’s striking. You know, West Virginia right now is a very large budget surplus. You know, why not put some of that — you know, some of that energy into getting a little bit more money so that you get — you know, from the state legislature, take your case to the people and try to sell them on what is a great American ideal, which is the land grant university, a place where you don’t have to be rich or upper middle class to get a — you know, to really have a chance to getting a fine education. And a fine education in a way of, you know — and again, I was struck in talking to a number of these first-generation students, that, you know, they came there thinking, oh, I’m going to major in something practical. You know, I’m going to be a business or this or that. And like, all of a sudden, they got there and like, they realize, oh, linguistics, you know, that that rocks my world. Well, it so happens linguistics also is very much in demand in A.I. right now. It seems to me in a very moving way kind of the best opportunities that a public education can offer middle and working-class kids.

MARTIN: So, presumably you put that question to the president and like, what do you think it’s really about?

POWELL: He’s long written about this demographic cliff. I think he sees himself as a visionary. I know he sees himself as a visionary. And that when all of these other state universities are having problems, West Virginia University after he will have left, because he’s going to leave in the next year or two, he says, will be positioned to survive in a very kind of practical and utilitarian way. Maybe the problem is, I mean, when I looked at the University of Kentucky, when I looked at the University of Arkansas, places with pretty similar demographic profiles to that of West Virginia, their enrollment is soaring. I mean, they’re adding classes. They’re adding professors. So, if nothing else, I guess he’s made a petri dish of West Virginia University, in that we’re going to see if — you know, if this works. You know, I think in the short run, I think it leaves students with some hollowed out programs.

MARTIN: Does this go beyond West Virginia University? Do you think there’s a bigger issue out here that we should be thinking about that West Virginia University just exemplifies as opposed to is kind of the whole story? Is there a bigger story out here that we should be thinking about?

POWELL: Yes, absolutely. Look, I mean, I think there’s been of, obviously, incoming fire directed at universities in the last 10 or 15 years, both from left and right, actually. And, you know — and I think those are — I mean, that is the, if you will, sort of the overarching, you know, umbrella under which some of this — some of what’s going on in West Virginia is going forward with. And you are seeing — I don’t want to make it entirely about West Virginia. I mean, you have University — State University of New York, Potsdam in far northern New York that’s made some, you know, very, very deep cuts and programs, cut out all sorts of what would have been thought of as essential majors. You’ve seen this in North Dakota. You’ve seen it in Missouri. So, you have a real challenge there. And you also have a challenge, I think, in getting — as alluded to you, you have a challenge in getting parents and citizens of the of these states to understand the value of a college education. And I guess that’s what I’m struck by — one of the things I’m struck by in West Virginia is that from the president, to the governor, to the head of the legislatures, to the provost, everyone’s just sort of taking it — you know, the starting point is — we’ve lost the confidence of people. We’re not going to get that. Enrollment’s going to decline. And therefore, we need to kind of manage decline. We need to manage decline with a few sharp programs there. And that seems to me to represent, both in West Virginia and in some of these other states, a real pressing issue.

MARTIN: Michael Powell. Thanks so much for talking with us.

POWELL: Thanks very much.