>>> WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS," I'M

JACK FORD.

OVER THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS THE

UNITED STATES HAS SEEN A

TROUBLING RESURGENCE OF WHITE

SUPREMACIST HATE GROUPS.

THE SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER

HAS ESTIMATED SINCE 2017 THERE'S

BEEN SOMETHING LIKE 55% INCREASE

OF THESE WHITE NATIONALIST

GROUPS.

SO ARE SOME OF THE FACTORS THAT

HAVE BEEN DRIVING THIS

RESURGENCE?

ACCORDING TO OUR NEXT GUEST, ONE

OF THE ANSWERS MIGHT BE

SURPRISING TO YOU, AND THAT IS

WOMEN.

JOURNALIST DARBY HAS BEEN

INVESTIGATING THE WHITE

NATIONALIST MOVEMENT FOR YEARS.

NOW SHE'S WRITTEN A NEW BOOK IN

WHICH SHE CHRONICLES THE ROLE

THAT WOMEN PLAY IN THE MODERN

WHITE SUPREMACIST MOVEMENT AND

TRIES TO GET TO THE ROOT OF WHY

THEY'RE ATTRACTED AND HOW THEY

FIT INTO THIS WHOLE SYSTEM.

THE BOOK IS CALLED "SISTERS IN

HATE: AMERICAN WOMEN ON THE

FRONT LINES OF WHITE

NATIONALISM."

WE'RE DELIGHTED TO WELCOME YOU

TO THE SHOW.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING

ME.

>> IT'S A FASCINATING BOOK.

IT IS EXTRAORDINARILY THOUGHT

PROVOKING AND TROUBLING IN SO

MANY WAYS.

I'M ALWAYS INTERESTED FOR

WRITERS AND FILM PRODUCERS TO

FIND OUT WHAT DREW THEM TO THE

STORY.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE INTRODUCTION,

YOU TALK ABOUT A COUPLE OF CASES

THAT WERE STRIKING AND SHOCKING.

WHAT IS IT THAT DREW YOU TO THIS

QUESTION OF WOMEN IN THESE

MOVEMENTS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK FROM A PERSONAL

STANDPOINT I GREW UP IN THE

SOUTH.

MY FAMILY HAS BEEN IN THE SOUTH

FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

SO RACISM AND EXTREMISM ARE

FAMILIAR TO YOU JUST IN TERMS OF

IT'S SOMETHING THAT I GREW UP

HEARING ABOUT.

IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF

THE 2016 ELECTION I, LIKE A LOT

OF PEOPLE, WAS TRYING TO PIECE

TOGETHER IN MY HEAD WHAT

HAPPENED, WHY IT HAPPENED, AND

IN THE COVERAGE OF THE SO-CALLED

ALT RIGHT WHICH WAS REALLY

GAINING STEAM AT THE TIME, THE

MAINSTREAM MEDIA WAS COVERING IT

PRETTY HEAVILY, I NEVER HEARD

WOMEN QUOTED.

I NEVER HEARD WOMEN DESCRIBED.

I ONLY HEARD THE ALT RIGHT

DESCRIBED AS A BUNCH OF ANGRY

WHITE MEN.

THAT STRUCK ME AS PROBABLY AT

LEAST A REDUCED VERSION OF THE

TRUTH.

AND SO I WENT LOOKING FOR THE

WOMEN, AND I FOUND THEM AND

FOUND THIS VERY LONG HISTORY OF

WOMEN'S INVOLVEMENT IN WHITE

NATIONALISM.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE

THREE WOMEN THAT ARE THE FOCAL

POINTS IN THIS.

I THINK IT'S A FASCINATING WAY

TO APPROACH THIS.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT HOW DIFFERENT

THEY ARE AND THE ROLES THEY PLAY

IN A SECOND.

YOU SAID YOU WENT LOOKING FOR

WOMEN TO TALK TO.

HOW DIFFICULT WAS IT TO FIRST

FIND THE WOMEN AND SECONDLY GET

THEM TO OPEN UP TO YOU?

>> YES, IT WAS NOT EASY TO GET

THEM TO OPEN UP.

THAT'S CERTAINLY TRUE.

FINDING THEM WAS A BIT EASIER

INSOFAR AS THE INTERNET ERA, A

LOT OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE YOUTUBE

CHANNELS, TWITTER FEEDS AND

PARTICULARLY ONES WHO WANT TO

HAVE A PLATFORM AND A VOICE IN

THE MOVEMENT.

THEY WERE EASILY ACCESSIBLE FROM

A SOCIAL MEDIA STANDPOINT.

SO I EMAILED AND SENT DIRECT

MESSAGES TO A LOT OF WOMEN.

I GOT AEFRL ABSOLUTE NOS FROM GO

BECAUSE I WAS PART OF THE

LAMESTREAM MEDIA AND PROBABLY A

FEMINIST, WHICH I AM, AND ANY

NUMBER OF THINGS THEY DISAGREE

WITH.

BUT THERE WERE A FEW WHO DID

AGREE TO SPEAK TO ME.

THAT WAS HUGE, AND IN AT LEAST

ONE CASE ONE OF THEM SERVED AS A

BIT OF A VALIDATING FORCE

BECAUSE SHE TOLD OTHER PEOPLE TO

SPEAK TO ME.

ULTIMATELY BY THE TIME I WAS

DONE REPORTING MY BOOK EARLIER

THIS YEAR, EVEN SOME OF MY MAIN

SUBJECTS HAD CEASED

COMMUNICATION, DECIDED IT WAS

NOT IN THEIR INTEREST.

THEY DIDN'T LIKE THE WAY I WAS

TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT THEM AND

CUT ME OFF.

AS A JOURNALIST, I'M SURE YOU

CAN COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND.

THERE WERE DEFINITELY DAYS WHEN

I WONDERED WHAT AM I DOING

WRONG.

I HAD TO TAKE A STEP BACK AND

REALIZE THEM NOT WANTING TO TALK

TO ME IS PART OF THE STORY.

>> CERTAINLY.

>> GIVEN THE STORY YOU'RE

TELLING, NOT TERRIBLY

SURPRISING.

THE STORY THAT YOU'RE TELLING,

YOU FOCUS ON THREE WOMEN,

EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFERENT IN

SPITE OF THE R THEIR LIVES.

>> ONE IS KARINA OLSON.

SHE CAME TO WHITE NATIONALISM

BEFORE THIS CURRENT MOMENT, THE

ALT RIGHT AND FOR CHAN AND

DIGITAL NEO FASCISTS, IF YOU

WILL.

SHE CAME TO IT IMMEDIATELY IN

THE AFTERMATH OF OBAMA'S

ELECTION WHEN THERE WAS A SURGE

IN RIGHT WING CHATTER AND

RECRUITMENT ONLINE.

SHE WAS A PERSON WHO WAS A

SEEKER, HAD HAD SOME TRAGEDY IN

HER LIFE, HAD TROUBLE FINDING

COMMUNITY, FINDING PURPOSE AND

WAS ABLE TO FIND THAT IN THE

WHITE NATIONALIST COMMUNITY.

SHE ULTIMATELY WENT THROUGH THE

MOVEMENT, WAS INVOLVED IN A

COUPLE OF DIFFERENT GROUPS AND

EXITED THE MOVEMENT.

BECAME AN FBI INFORMANT AND

EXITED.

THE SECOND IS AIL LA STEWART WHO

IS BEST KNOWN ONLINE AS RIFE

WITH A PERSON.

SHE WAS WELL KNOWN AROUND

TRUMP'S ELECTION AND THE YEAR

AFTER, SELF-PROCLAIMED FEMINIST,

MOTHER OF SIX WHO REALLY

RADICALIZED IN THE LATE YEARS OF

OBAMA'S PRESIDENCY.

HER WHOLE THING IS MOTHERHOOD,

TRADITIONAL WOMAN HOOD, BEING A

WIFE WITH A PURPOSE, BUT TAKING

TRADITIONAL VALUES AND ENTER

WEAVING THEM WITH A WHITE

NAT

NATIONALIST.

THE THIRD IS LANA LOCK TESTIFY

WHO RUNS SOMETHING CALLED RED

ICE WHICH IS INFO WARS BUT

FURTHER TO THE RIGHT WITH HER

HUSBAND.

SHE WAS SOMEBODY WHO STARTED OUT

IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY AND SAYS

SHE WAS A MODEL AND WAS SOMEBODY

ALWAYS INTERESTED IN ATTENTION

AND HAD ALSO ALWAYS BEEN DRAWN

TO CONSPIRACY THEORIZING AND SHE

AND HER HUSBAND ULTIMATELY TOOK

RED ICE IN A VERY FAR RIGHT

DIRECTION AND FOCUSED ON ALL THE

CONSPIRACY THEORIES AT THE HEART

OF WHITE NATIONALISM.

>> THE NOTION TO THE RIGHT OF

INFO WARS RAISES INTERESTING

QUESTIONS HERE.

I'M TALKING WITH SAY WAH DARBY

ABOUT HER NEW BOOK ENTITLED

"SISTERS IN HATE: AMERICAN WOMEN

ON THE FRONT LINES OF WHITE

NATIONALISM."

I SUSPECT, IF YOU ASKED A GROUP

OF PEOPLE WHAT IS IT THAT DRIVES

PEOPLE TO THESE GROUPS, NOT JUST

WOMEN BUT ANYBODY, I SUSPECT THE

MAJORITY IS IT WOULD BE THE

IDEOLOGY.

IT DRAWS THEM IN IN SOME FASHION

LIKE A MAGNET.

IN READING WHAT YOU'VE WRITTEN,

THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THE

CASE, YES?

>> IT IS INDEED MORE COMPLICATED

THAN THAT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE GET INVOLVED,

AND THIS IS BORNE OUT THROUGH

SOCIOLOGICAL STUDIES,

PSYCHOLOGICAL STUDIES.

PEOPLE ARE DRAWN INTO THESE

GROUPS FOR A LOT OF DIFFERENT

REASONS.

SOME OF THEM ARE LOOKING FOR A

COMMUNITY, FOR COMRADERY.

SOME ARE LOOKING FOR A WAY TO

EXPLAIN THEIR PLACE IN THE

WORLD, WHERE THEY FIND

THEMSELVES OR WHERE THEY'VE

LANDED IN LIFE.

SOME ARE LOOKING FOR POWER, AND

THAT CAN MEAN HAVING A PLATFORM,

HAVING A VOICE OR IT CAN MEAN

LITERALLY MAKING MONEY.

SO THERE ARE A LOT OF FORCES

THAT PULL THEM INTO THIS SPACE

OR THAT THEY ULTIMATELY FIND

ATTRACTIVE THAT AREN'T PURELY

IDEOLOGICAL.

THE IDEOLOGY COMES LATER.

THERE'S A QUOTE A SOCIOLOGIST

WROTE I THINK ABOUT A LOT ABOUT

PEOPLE -- THEY SHOW UP ON THE

DOORSTEP OF THIS MOVEMENT AND

THEIR RACISM IS NOT NECESSARILY

ANYMORE VIRULENT THAN A SORT OF

BASELINE OF RACISM IN THE UNITED

STATES.

BUT THEN IT GETS AUGMENTED AND

EXAGGERATED, AND THE WAY I

DESCRIBE IT IN THE BOOK IS THAT

THEIR BELIEFS ARE SORT OF LIKE

MAINSTREAM WHITE AMERICA LOOKING

IN A FUN HOUSE MIRROR.

SO THE IDEOLOGY CAN DEVELOP OVER

TIME.

>> I WAS -- I JUST WANT TO

MENTION THIS BRIEFLY TO GET TO A

QUESTION TO YOU, ABOUT 20 YEARS

AGO, I DID A STORY ON LOOKING

FOR WOMEN AS LEADERS, EMERGING

LEADERS OF HATE GROUPS

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME

WAS THE CASUALNESS THAT SOME OF

THE WOMEN I TALKED TO WOULD

DESCRIBE NOT JUST HATE, BUT

VIOLENCE ATTACHED TO HATE.

DID YOU FIND SOMETHING SIMILAR?

>> I THINK THAT ONE OF THE

THINGS THAT WOMEN ESPECIALLY IN

THIS SPACE DO IS THEY OFTEN

SPEAK CASUALLY ABOUT EVERYTHING.

THEY HAVE A WAY OF SEEMING VERY

PERSONABLE, VERY RELATABLE.

THEY WANT TO SEEM LIKE PEOPLE

YOU CAN HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH

EVEN ABOUT THE MOST TABOO OR

UPSETTING OF TOPICS.

VIOLENCE IS SUCH AN INTERESTING

QUESTION BECAUSE I HEARD A LOT

OF DIFFERENT WAYS OF WOMEN

SPEAKING ABOUT IT.

SOME WERE ALL FOR IT.

AND OTHERS WERE VERY QUICK TO

SAY I DON'T SUPPORT VIOLENCE

BUT.

I THINK A LOT ABOUT LANA, SHE IN

OUR FIRST INTERVIEW TOGETHER

SAID YOU SHOULD NEVER DENOUNCE

AN EXTREMIST ON YOUR SIDE.

THAT WAS IN THE CONTEXT OF -- WE

HAD BEEN TALKING ABOUT VIOLENCE

AND THE CRIMES PERPETRATED BY

THE FAR RIGHT.

I WAS VERY STRUCK BY THAT

BECAUSE IT SEEMED -- SHE SEEMED

TO BE SAYING, THAT'S NOT

SOMETHING I WOULD ENGAGE IN, BUT

I WOULD ALSO BE HESITANT TO

DENOUNCE IT IF IT ULTIMATELY IS

TO THE SAME ENDS AS WHAT I DO.

SO THAT QUOTE DEFINITELY STICKS

IN MY BRAIN.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE IDEA, YOU

MENTIONED THAT ONE OF THE BIM

YOU TALKED TO EVENTUALLY WALKED

AWAY FROM THE -- LET'S CALL IT A

MOVEMENT, THE OVERARCHING

UMBRELLA TERM FOR IT.

WHAT DID YOU FIND AGAIN IN YOUR

REPORTING AND IN YOUR WRITING

ABOUT THIS NOTION OF BEING ABLE

TO WALK AWAY.

HOW DIFFICULT IT IS AND HOW IT

IS DONE IF SOMEBODY CHOOSES IT.

>> RIGHT.

WELL, I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING

THAT'S CHANGED PRETTY RADICALLY

IN THE DIGITAL AGE BECAUSE ONCE

UPON A TIME, IF YOU WERE A PART

OF A GROUP, THERE WERE

MEMBERSHIP RULES AND MEETINGS

YOU WENT TO.

IN THE DIGITAL ERA YOU CAN BE

PART OF THE MOVEMENT SIMPLY

BECAUSE OF THE CONTENT YOU

ABSORB OR LISTEN TO ONLINE AND

WHAT YOU SAY BACK.

AND THAT'S A DIFFERENT --

WALKING AWAY IS A DIFFERENT

SITUATION THAN I THINK IT ONCE

WAS.

I THINK IN BOTH CASES THE

REASONS THAT PEOPLE DECIDE THIS

IS NO LONGER FOR THEM RELATES IN

SOME WAYS TO THE WAYS THAT THEY

DECIDE THAT IT IS FOR THEM WHICH

IS TO SAY, IT'S NOT THAT THEY --

THE VEIL LIFTS AND THEY REALIZE

THIS IS THE WRONG WAY OF

THINKING ABOUT THE WORLD, I'VE

BEEN SO UNETHICAL.

SOMETHING ELSE HAPPENS.

IT USUALLY IS THAT WHATEVER THEY

WERE GETTING OUT OF THE SPACE,

COMR

COMRADERY, POWER, MEANING, THEY

FEEL LIKE THEY'RE NOT GETTING IT

ANYMORE.

NOT EVEN SUDDENLY, IT CAN BE A

GRADUAL PROCESS.

THE REASONS FOR LEAVING ARE VERY

INDIVIDUALIZED AND FOR LACK OF A

BETTER WORD, SELFISH.

PEOPLE NEED TO FEEL -- TO LEAVE.

IT'S NOT NECESSARILY FOR SOME

HIGH IDEALISTIC REASON.

WE LIKE TO THINK THAT IS THE

CAUSE BECAUSE THEN THEY COULD BE

REASONED FOR DECIDING TO LEAVE

THE SPACE, BUT THAT DOESN'T WORK

VERY WELL.

>> LESS THAN A MINUTE SO A QUICK

QUESTION FOR YOU.

WHAT SURPRISED YOU THE MOST

THROUGH YOUR REPORTING?

>> THE MENTAL GYMNASTICS THAT

PEOPLE ENGAGE IN TO JUSTIFY THE

FALSEHOODS AND CONSPIRACY

THEORIES IN THIS MOVEMENT,

WHETHER IT'S WOMEN SAYING IT'S

NOT A MISOGYNISTIC MOVEMENT,

WHICH IT IS, AND THEN FINDING

WAYS TO SORT OF CONNECT DOTS TO

PROVE THAT.

OR SEEING SOMETHING THAT'S A

BLATANT LIE BUT FINDING WAYS TO

SAY IT'S ACTUALLY TRUE.

SO JUST THE MENTAL GYMNASTICS

WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS REALLY

SURPRISING.

>> WELL, IT'S A FASCINATING

BOOK, A POWERFUL BROOK, THOUGHT

PROVOKING BOOK CALLED "SISTERS

IN HATE: AMERICAN WOMEN ON THE

FRONT LINES OF WHITE

NATIONALISM."

SARAH DARBY, THANK YOU FOR

JOINING US.

CERTAINLY ENJOYED THE

CONVERSATION.

HOPEFULLY WE'LL TALK AGAIN SOON.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> TAKE CARE NOW.