> THIS WARNING COULDN’T BE MORE TIMELY AS A WAVE OF BOOK BANNING WASHES OVER THE UNITED STATES.

IT’S LATEST VICTIM IS OUR NEXT GUEST ART SPIEGELMAN, THE AUTHOR OF THE ACCLAIMED GRAPHIC NOVEL ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST.

‘MAUS.’

IT WAS BANNED BY A TENNESSEE SCHOOL BOARD.

THEY SAY DUE TO CONTENT THAT INCLUDES NUDITY, PROFANITY AND VIOLENCE.

SERIOUSLY.

IT’S ABOUT A CONCENTRATION CAMP.

AND SPIEGELMAN WROTE ‘MAUS’ ABOUT HIS PARENTS WHO SURVIVED AUSCHWITZ.

HERE HE TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHAT BANNING HIS BOOK COULD MEAN FOR AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

THIS INTERVIEW IS PART OF EXPLORING HATE.

OUR ONGOING SERIES ON ANTI-SEMITISM, RACISM AND EXTREMISM.

THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND ART SPIEGELMAN, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

A TENNESSEE BOARD OF EDUCATION REMOVED YOUR BOOK ‘MAUS’ FROM THE CURRICULA A FEW WEEKS AGO AND HAS CAUSED GREAT CONTROVERSY EVEN MADE ‘MAUS’ NUMBER ONE ON THE AMAZON BEST SELLER LIST.

NOW YOU’VE HAD A WEEK OR SO TO REFLECT ON IT, WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE THE LESSONS FROM THIS?

I THINK IT’S PART OF THE DANGEROUS AND PERILOUS TIMES WE ARE LIVING IN A LOT OF IT DIRECTED AT CRITICAL RACE THEORY IN GIANT FRIGHTENING QUOTES.

AND PART OF IT DIRECTED AGAINST NON-GENDER NORMTIVE PEOPLE’S BOOKS.

IT’S AMAZING HOW OFTEN COMICS COME UP AS A PROBLEM.

USED TO BE COME IKS WERE BURNED IN 1954 WHEN THEY WERE AFRAID OF CAUSING JUVENILE DELINQUENCY.

NOW BECAUSE OF ‘MAUS’ IT’S PART OF MOST CURRICULA THAT GRAPHIC NOVELS ARE WITHIN THE SCOPE OF WHAT IS TAUGHT BECAUSE IT’S EFFECTIVE.

AND THE SCHOOL BOARD SEEMS TO BE FOLLOWING AN AGENDA EITHER CONSCIENTIOUSLY, IF I WANT TO BE GENEROUS, UNCONSCIOUSLY OF MOMS FOR FREEDOM, LIBERTY, WHATEVER TURNING THIS INTO AN ISSUE OF ISSUE OF EDUCATION AND MAKING SURE THAT CHILDREN ARE PREPARED FOR THE WORLD THAT IS KIND OF BARRELING AT THEM.

AFTER THE CONTROVERSY ERUPTED OVER THE REMOVAL OF YOUR BOOK FROM THE CURRICULA, THE SCHOOL BOARD IN TENNESSEE ISSUED A STATEMENT.

AND I’D LIKE TO READ IT TO YOU AND GET YOUR REACTION TO IT.

THEY SAID, WE DO NOT DIMINISH THE VALUE OF ‘MAUS’ AS AN IMPACKETFUL AND MEANINGFUL PIECE OF LITERATURE.

NOR DO WE DISPUTE THE IMPORTANCE OF TEACHING OUR CHILDREN THE HISTORICAL AND MORAL LESSONS AND REALITIES OF THE HOLOCAUST.

TO THE CONTRARY, WE HAVE ASKED OUR ADMINISTRATORS TO FIND OTHER WORKS TO ACCOMPLISH THE SAME EDUCATIONAL GOALS IN A MORE AGE APPROPRIATE FASHION.

TELL ME YOUR REACTION TO THAT.

WELL, I’VE NOW COME TO REALIZE THAT AGE APPROPRIATE IS A BROAD RANGE.

IT CAN INCLUDE PROBABLY SCHOOL BOARD AS WELL AS 14-YEAR-OLD STUDENTS AND THEIR CLASSES.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MIDDLE SCHOOL YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT SOME KIDS WHO CAN BARELY READ AND SOME KIDS JUST TAKING ADVANCED PLACEMENT CLASSES FOR THEIR UNIVERSITY EDUCATION.

AND ANYTHING THAT HELPS THAT EDUCATION HAPPEN IS IMPORTANT.

WHY DO YOU THINK IT’S IMPORTANT FOR AN EIGHTH GRADER TO BE TAUGHT A BOOK LIKE ‘MAUS.’

BECAUSE IN ORDER TO BE A RESPONSIBLE HUMAN NOT BROUGHT UP WITH A LOT OF PROPAGANDA AND PREJUDICE, IT’S A MATTER OF BEING WELL EDUCATED.

AND SOME PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO DO THAT ON THEIR OWN.

MANY PEOPLE NEED THE SCHOOLS TO DO IT.

I UNDERSTAND HOW MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT SHOULD BE PRIMARILY A RELIGIOUS EDUCATION.

I DON’T KNOW THAT THAT’S THE ONLY WAY TO GET TO AN ETHICAL FUTURE.

BUT AN ETHICAL FUTURE IS REALLY IMPORTANT, TO REDRESS WAYS WE CREATED NEVER A MORE DIVIDED SET OF CLASSES IN AMERICA.

THE DIFFICULTY RIGHT NOW OF BEING A PERSON OF COLOR IN AMERICA OR ARE MANIFEST.

THEY’VE BEEN MADE TOTALLY CLEAR IN THE PAST FEW YEARS.

AS WE GET POLARIZED ABOUT THAT ISSUE IT’S IMPORTANT TO EMBRACE IT ALL.

ONE OF THE SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS SAID THIS WEEK BUT PARENTS CAN READ ‘MAUS’ AT HOME TO THEIR KIDS.

THAT’S FINE.

WE DON’T WANT TO MAKE IT PART OF THE CURRICULA.

DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE TO YOU?

AND WHY WOULD HE SAY THAT?

WELL, I THINK THEY WOULD SAY THAT BECAUSE IT’S PART OF LOCALIZING ALL POLITICS AT THIS POINT.

SCHOOL BOARDS ARE MUCH BETTER EQUIPPED THAN CONGRESS TO PASS LAWS ABOUT HOW CHILDREN MIGHT BE EDUCATED SO THEY’D BE USEFUL AND GOOD CITIZENS OF A COUNTRY IN PERIL.

BUT ALSO IT’S — IT’S A BIT DISINGENUOUS TO KEEP FOCUSING IN ‘MAUS’ UPON A FEW RATHER MILD BITS OF FOUL LANGUAGE AND ON SOMETHING I FOUND REALLY OFFENSIVE.

THEY KEEP NOT TALKING ABOUT THE REAL ISSUES WHICH IS THE MONTHLY CUTOFF.

WE DON’T MIND TEACHING THE HOLOCAUST BUT BASICALLY I FEEL THEY WANT A KINDER GENTLER HOLOCAUST TO PRESENT TO THEIR CHILDREN.

WHAT THEY ARE UPSET ABOUT IS ONE PANEL WITH WHAT THEY DESCRIBE AS A NUDE WOMAN AND THEN DESCRIBE THAT AS SEXUAL.

I FOUND THAT AS OFFENSIVE AS ANYTHING THEY FOUND IN ‘MAUS.’

IT’S ONE PANEL, NOT WITH MICE BUT WITH INSET INTO THE BOOK ABOUT MY MOTHER’S SUICIDE AND HOW I RESPONDED WHEN I FOUND OUT ABOUT IT THE DAY SHE KILLED HERSELF THAT HAS HER NAKED IN A BATHTUB FULL OF BLOOD WITHOUT MAKING ANYTHING ESPECIALLY LICENSIOUS ABOUT THE IMAGE IT’S A PERSON IN THE BATHTUB WITH BLOOD.

USUAL WILLY IN THE BATHTUB BREASTS WERE VISIBLE.

I THINK THEY WERE ASKING ME TO PUT A BATHROBE ON MY MOM IN THE TUB OR SOMETHING BECAUSE IT DOESN’T MAKE MUCH SENSE AS DESCRIBING THAT AS SEX.

WHEN THEY SAY NUDE WOMAN RATHER THAN NAKED.

IS CONSCIOUS OR UNCONSIDERS CHOICE IN ORDER TO DEFLECT FROM THE REAL ISSUES IN THE BOOK.

AND WHY ‘MAUS’ IS SUCH A GOOD TEACHING TOOL EVEN THOUGH I CONFESSED I NEVER EXPECTED IT TO BE A Y.A. LEVEL.

I LEARNED MY LESSONS BECAUSE KIDS LEARNED LESSONS FROM ‘MAUS’ THEY’VE DONE WELL ASSIMILATING THE LESSONS, THE YOUNG PEOPLE I’VE SPOKEN TO.

I THINK THE THINGS THEY OBJECT TO — ONE OF THEM SAID, I LOVE THE HOLOCAUST IN HIS SCHOOL BOARD MEETINGS, SAYING THAT IT’S GREAT PART OF THE STORY THAT VLADEK MY FATHER IS TELLING.

BUT WHY IS THERE THE OTHER STUFF NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WHO HOLOCAUST WHICH IS NOT TRUE, THE WAY THE BOOK COMES FORWARD AND MEANT IT’S THROUGH MY EYES UNDERSTANDING AND LEARNING AND I WAS TEACHING MYSELF AS WELL AS ANYBODY WANTING TO SHARE THE BOOK WITH ME, HOW THE HECK I EVER GOT ON TO THIS PLANET, BOTH PARENTS WERE SUPPOSED DEAD IN AUSCHWITZ.

SO AS AN ADULT I WENT BACK TO MY FATHER AND HE WAS WILLING TO TELL ME IN DETAIL.

AND WE FINALLY FOUND COMMON GROUND WHERE WE COULD TALK TO EACH OTHER WITHOUT YELLING AT EACH OTHER, LIKE IRONICALLY IN HIS MEMORIES OF THIS TIME, THE DEATH CAMPS.

TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK THE UNDERLYING FEAR WAS THAT’S CAUSING PEOPLE TO WANT TO REMOVE FROM THE CURRICULA BOOKS LIKE YOURS?

WELL, I THINK IT’S PART OF A GENERAL AND WIDESPREAD AUTHORITARIAN INFLUENCE.

LIKE WHEN I TRY TO DECONSTRUCT WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE SCHOOL BOARD WHICH I’M SURE WOULD BE NO HAPPIER WITH ANY OF THE BOOKS THAT ARE OUT ON GENDER ISSUES AND GRACE ISSUES HAS TO DO WITH WHO IS IN CHARGE HERE.

AND THEY WANT IT TO BE THE MOMS FOR LIBERTY.

AND THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THEY ARE NOT EQUIPPED TO GIVE THE CHILDREN A GOOD EDUCATION.

IN FACT THE SCHOOL BOARD IS PROBABLY MADE UP OF PARENTS WHO WENT TO SCHOOL IN McMINN COUNTY AND NEVER GOT A GOOD EDUCATION HOWG ALLOWING THEM TO DECONSTRUCT MY BOOK FOR EXAMPLE WITH ANY INTELLIGENCE.

THEREFORE EVEN THOUGH I DIDN’T MAKE IT FOR CHILDREN IF IT’S GOING TO BE IN SCHOOLS FOR KIDS 14 YEARS OLD, THAT’S NOT A PROBLEM.

BUT BETTER TO BE DONE UNDER A CURRICULUM GIVING SUPPORTING MATERIALS THAT’S ACTUALLY HELPING ONE UNDERSTAND THE ISSUES MORE BROADLY.

AND IN FACT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE TEACHERS AT THIS BOARD MEETING WERE ADAMANT THOUGHT THEY THOUGHT TO BE TAUGHT IN CLASSES BECAUSE IT’S PART OF A CURRICULUM SHOWING NEWS REEL FOOTAGE, OTHER PEOPLES FILMS, OTHER BOOKS THAT PUT IT IN CONTEXT.

THEY SAY THEY DON’T WANT TO DROP IT BECAUSE I’M THE THIRD ITEM ON THE CURRICULUM.

THE FOURTH QUARTER IS ABOUT JAPANESE INTERNMENT CAMPS.

SO BETTER THAT — I THINK THEY’RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK.

I FEEL SAD WHEN I LISTEN TO THE — WHEN I READ THE MINUTES OF THE SCHOOL BOARD MEETING THAT EVEN THEY THEY WERE TRYING TO FIND WAYS TO GET PAST THE SCHOOL BOARD WELL WE TRIED WHITING OUT THE BAD WORDS LIKE DAMN.

AND THE WORD BITCH WHEN I TALK ABOUT MY ANGER AT MY MOTHER FOR ABANDONING ME IN THE HEAT OF FINDING OUT SHE KILLED HERSELF.

THEY LEFT THE B OF BITCH IN PLACE.

AS A MOODEST PROPOSAL I THOUGHT THEY COULD PUT IN BAGEL OR BLINTZ BECAUSE IT BRINGS A WHOLESOME PARTS OF JEWISH HERITAGE.

IT’S DEFLECTION WHICH IS THE CASE FOR ALL THE BOOKS BANNED ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

LET ME PUSH BACK ON SOMETHING YOU JUST SAID, WHICH IS THAT THE PARENTS ARE NOT REALLY WELL EDUCATED ENOUGH AND THEY DON’T REALLY KNOW WHAT WOULD BE GOOD FOR THEIR CHILDREN.

ISN’T THAT A PROBLEM IF WE’RE NOT TRYING TO BALANCE THE FACT THAT PARENTS SHOULD HAVE SOME SAY, AND THAT WE’RE SEEMING CONTEMPTUOUS OF PARENTS WHO WANT TO SAY, I NEED CONTROL OVER WHAT’S AT A TAUT TO MY KIDS.

OBVIOUSLY THAT’S A VERY AMERICAN ATTITUDIBLE THE WAY IT’S DONE IN FRANCE WHICH IS THE OTHER CULTURE EPIEXPOSED TO REGULARLY BECAUSE OF MY WIFE AND FRIENDS IN FRANCE IS PUBLIC EDUCATION IS ABOUT EDUCATING PEOPLE SO THAT THEY CAN PARTICIPATE IN THEIR GREAT DEMOCRACY EXPERIMENT.

AND THEREFORE ONE HAS TO LEARN TO TRUST THE TEACHERS OR HIRE TEACHERS THAT ARE TRUSTWORTHY IT’S NOT ABOUT TRUSTING CHILDREN.

IT’S TRYING TO MAKE SURE THEY’RE NOT EXPOSED TO ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF THE VERY NARROW FOCUS THAT’S BEING OFFERED TO THEM THIS INCLUDES PEOPLE TRIGGERED BY READING ABOUT THE SLAVE JIM IN HUCKLEBERRY FIRN AND EXPOSED TO A BAD WORD.

THIS IS BETTER TAUGHT IN THE SCHOOL THAN HAVING THEM COME ACROSS THE WORD AND THINK THAT MARK TWAIN IS WRITING IT IN 2021 AND EXPOSING THEM TO THE N-WORD.

IT’S IN A CONTEXT IN WHICH JIM IS THE MOST HUMAN FULLY DEVELOPED CHARACTER IN SOME WAYS IN ALL OF HUCKLEBERRY FINN.

SO I’M JUST A FIRST AMENDMENT FUNDAMENTALIST AND BELIEVE IT’S BEST TAUGHT WITH MORE TALK THAT ONE EXPOSES CHILDREN TO THINGS, THESE THINGS COULD BE TAUGHT, SHOULD BE TAUGHT ALL OF IT INCLUDING THE UGLIEST PARTS AS WELL AS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WITHOUT TRYING TO WHITEWASH IT AND — AND HIDE THE ACTUAL HISTORIES THAT CHILDREN, YOUNG PEOPLE AND ADULTS NEED TO BE EXPOSED TO.

IN ‘MAUS’ YOU PORTRAY THE JEW SLT S AS MICE AND THE NAZIS AS CATS.

AND OTHER GROUPS AS DIFFERENT ANIMALS.

IN SOME WAYS THAT HELPS GIVE AN EMOTIONAL DISTANCE IN A WAY.

BOTH.

THESE ARE NOT.

YOU’RE RIGHT, WALTER IT DOES BOTH.

IT GIVES ME ENOUGH DISTANCE TO MAKE THIS THINGS BY PUTTING THE MOUSE HAND CAT AND DOG PIG MASKS ON BUT THEY’RE MAVERICKS.

I DON’T THINK OF MYSELF AS A MOUSE EXACTLY BUT THAT ALLOWS THE DISTANCE TO ENTER INTO THE MATERIAL BUT ALSO KIND OF INTIMACY.

BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE — THE MICE ALL LOOK SORT OF ALIKE ALL TRIANGLES WITH TWO DOTS LITTLE LUMPS FOR EARS.

THAT MEANS IF YOU IDENTIFY WITH ME YOU’RE GOING TO BE AS A CHARACTER IN THE BOOK ALREADY TALKING TO HIS DAD.

YOU’LL ALSO BE IDENTIFYING WITH THE PEOPLE WHO LOOK ALMOST EXACTLY LIKE HIM BECAUSE THEY LOOK MORE OR LESS ALIKE.

AND THERE WAS A MEAN FAET TO MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTOOD WHO YOU WERE LOOK AT WHEN I WAS TELLING THE STORY OF DESTINIES OF THE PEOPLE.

I DON’T KNOW HOW YOU TO RESOLVE THE DILEMMA YOU BROUGHT UP WELL PARENTS HAVE A RIGHT TO DOT DOT DOT.

THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO HAVE THAT.

BUT ALL PARENTS SHOULD HAVE AN ADVANCED TEACHING DEGREE BEFORE THEY TAKE THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY FOR THAT SORT OF THING, BECAUSE, HEY IT’S THE SAME STATE THAT 35 MILES AWAY FROM THE SCHOOL BOARD THEY WERE TRYING TO KEEP EVOLUTION FROM BEING TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS IN THE SCOPE’S MONKEY TRIALS.

THIS IS NOT A USEFUL EDUCATION IF THEY SUCCEEDED IN BANNING IN TEACHING AR DARWIN IN SCHOOLS.

SIMILARLY I DON’T THINK STOPPING ONE’S EDUCATION WITH THE NEW TESTAMENT IS ANY BETTER.

YOU’VE SAID WE’RE LIVING IN REALLY PERILOUS TIMES.

BUT DO YOU THINK THAT PULLING A BOOK LIKE YOURS OUT OF A CURRICULA FOR EIGHTH GRADERS IS REALLY A STEP ON THE WAY TO REAL BOOK BANNING AND BOOK BURNING.

ABSOLUTELY.

I DON’T KNOW TO WHAT DEGREE THE SCHOOL BOARD WAS WORKING IN COLLUSION WITH MOMS FOR LIBERTY BUT THAT’S A VERY OVERT PROGRAM, RATHER MALE VOLUMANT.

COMPLETELY MALE VOLUMEN PULLING BOOKS OUT OF LIBRARIES AND SCHOOLS TEACHING ONLY A POSITIVE AND PATRIOTIC PICTURE OF AMERICA’S PAST THAT’S NOT USEFUL IT’S AS PERILOUS AS YOU THINK IT IS.

IT’S BEING AMPED UP.

IT’S NOT TAKING IT OUT THE CURRICULUM AND LEAVING THE KID TO FEND FOR THEMSELVES IF THEY CAN FIND THE BOOK.

IT’S ALSO ABOUT TRYING TO CONTROL EVERYTHING THAT’S BEING READ, INCLUDING IN LIBRARIES.

FIND LIBRARIES FOR HAVING BOOKS BANNED ONE DAYS THEY HAD A $10,000 A DAY FINE IF YOU PROMOTE A BANNED BOOK IF THAT AREA.

AND THAT’S COMING ALSO CLOSER TO GENUINE BOOK BANNING.

THE PROBLEM WITH BANNING BOOKS I WAS RIGHT THEY’RE NOT NAZIS.

THE SCHOOL BOARD.

THAT’S NOT HAPPENING.

BUT IT’S NOT EFFECTIVE TO BAN A BOOK AS YOU CAN SEE BY ‘MAUS’ SHOOTING UP ON THE BEST SELLER LIST.

BUT YOU HAVE TO BURN THE BOOKS AFTER YOU BURN THE BOOKS YOU HAVE TO BURN THE PEOPLE THAT WROTE THEM AND READ THEM.

IT’S A TRAJECTORY.

IT’S — I’D LIKE TO SAY IT’S ABSURD BUT NOT EXACTLY.

WHOOPI GOLDBERG GOT SUSPENDED FOR TWO WEEKS FROM ‘THE VIEW’ BECAUSE OF WHAT SHE SAID IN A CONVERSATION ABOUT YOUR BOOK AND THE CONTROVERSY AROUND THE PULLING OF YOUR BOOK FROM THE CURRICULUM.

LET ME READ YOU WHAT SHE SAID AND THE DISCUSSION AND GET YOUR REACTION TO IT.

SHE SAID, THE HOLOCAUST IS NOT ABOUT RACE.

IT’S ABOUT MAN’S INHUMANITY TO MAN.

AND THEN ONE OF THE OTHER COHOSTS SAID IT WAS DRIVEN BY WHITE SUPREMACY.

AND WHOOPI GOLDBERG SAID BUT THESE ARE TWO WHITE GROUPS OF PEOPLE.

SHE APOLOGIZED.

BUT SHE WAS STILL SUSPENDED.

TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF THAT.

FAIR ENOUGH.

I THINK WHAT WAS SAID WAS SAID IN SOME KIND OF IGNORANCE OF A MASTER RACE EXTERMINATING AN INFERIOR RACE WAS THE RHETORIC OF GERMANY AT THE TIME.

SO WHETHER OR NOT JEWS ARE WHITE, BLACK OR STRIPED ISN’T THE REAL ISSUE IT’S ABOUT MAN’S INHUMANITY THE SAME WAY SLAVERY IS ABOUT INHUMANITY TO MAN.

THE SAME WAY GENOCIDE OF INDIGENOUS AMERICANS WAS ALSO MEN’S CRUELTY TO MAN.

BUT WITHIN THAT RACE SEEMS TO BE AN IMPORTANT AND HIGHLY CHARGED TOPIC IN AMERICA.

I THINK SHE LEARNED HER LESSON BECAUSE OF THE CONVERSATION THAT ENSUED AS A RESULT OF WHAT SHE SAID.

WHICH IS BASICALLY A PROCESS OF EDUCATION.

IT’S WHAT HAPPENED TO HER.

SHE CAME OUT I THINK WITH A VERY SINCERE RESPONSE SAYING I DIDN’T GET IT.

I GET IT NOW.

AND I DON’T THINK IT WAS — IT SHOULDN’T BE FEAR FOR JOB JOB.

THE PUNISH WAS UNNECESSARY WHAT HAPPENED INSTEAD OF A CANCELLING WAS SOMEBODY SIMPLY JUST TALKING TO HER.

AND EXPLAINING WHAT THE REALITY OF THAT HISTORY IS.

AND I THINK SHE WAS ABLE TO GET IT.

SO CASE CLOSED.

LET’S MOVE ON.

AND — AND DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS OF KEEPING WHAT HAS TO BE REMEMBERED REMEMBERED.

WHICH IS NOT JUST AUSCHWITZ BUT OUR ENTIRE HISTORY.

WHAT ROLE CAN ‘MAUS’ PLAY IN FIGHTING ANTI-SEMITISM, AND FOR THAT MATTER IN FIGHTING RACISM?

WELL, IT GIVES ONE A MODEL OF WHAT HAPPENED IN A WAY THAT’S CLEARLY FROM MY EXPERIENCE JUST UNDERSTANDABLE.

KIDS YOUNGER THAN 14, ADULTS, I KNOW THAT A COPY WAS GIVEN BY MY FRIEND J.R., THE PHOTOGRAPHER, TO A NEO-NAZI WHO IS IN A PRISON IN CALIFORNIA.

AND I GOT A FAN LETTER FROM HIM AFTERWARDS THAT HELPED OPEN HIS EYES TO WHAT HE HAD BEEN PART OF.

AND I WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET A NAZI TATTOO OFF HIS BODY.

IT’S ACROSS THE BOARD IT’S USEFUL.

I DON’T THINK NEO-NAZIS ARE OUT ONLY TO GET JEWS.

I THINK THERE IS THE GREAT FEAR THAT AMERICANS WHO AREN’T OFF THE MAY FLOWER MIGHT NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE PART OF THE POLITICS, BE ALLOWED TO VOTE, THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND NEO-NAZIS ARE AT LEAST AS UNHAPPY WITH BLACK CITIZENS AS THEY ARE WITH JEWISH.

IT’S ALL ONE PILE OF OTHERING TO MAKE ONES SEVEN FEEL STRONGER AND BETTER.

AND SO I THINK IT PLAYS INTO BEING USEFUL BY BEING IN CATS AND MICE FOR NAZIS AND JEWS BECAUSE CATS AND MICE ALLOW IT TO BECOME THE SELF-DESTRUCTING METAPHOR I MENTIONED.

ABOUT ALL RACISM AND ALL FASCISTS.

IF YOU FIND THEM ON YOUR SCHOOL SCHOOL BOARD MESSING WITH YOUR LIBRARIES THEY NEED TO RESISTED BECAUSE YOU CAN SEE THE POSSIBLE CONSEQUENCES.

ART SPIEGELMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU.

PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOU.