> TO EXPLORE THE EVOLUTION OF RIGHT WING EXTREMIST GROUPS IN AMERICA AND THEIR CONNECTION TO TRUMP, AUTHOR AND HISTORIAN KATHLEEN BALLOU JOINS WALTER ISAACSON.

THIS INTERVIEW IS PART OF EXPLORING HATE, OUR ONGOING SERIES ON ANTI-SEMITISM, RACISM, AND EXTREMISM.

THANK YOU AND WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

Reporter: SO WE HEARD YESTERDAY’S HEARINGS A WHOLE LOT ABOUT THE WHITE POWER MOVEMENT.

YOU WROTE A BOOK ABOUT IT CALLED ‘BRING THE WAR HOME.’

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME IS HOW THE PROUD BOYS AND THE OATHKEEPERS, TWO SEPARATE ORGANIZATIONS, GET UNITED BY TRUMP IN THIS JANUARY 6 INSURRECTION.

WHAT STRUCK YOU ABOUT THAT?

IT IS INTERESTING TO NOTE THE WAY THAT THIS ARGUMENT WAS PUT FORTH IN THE COMMITTEE HEARINGS THIS WEEK BECAUSE THEIR PURPOSE HERE IS TO ESTABLISH TRUMP WAS THE UNIFYING FIGURE THAT BROUGHT THESE GROUPS INTO SORT OF COMMON PURPOSE ON JANUARY 6th AND THAT HE — HIS GO ORDER WAS SORT OF THE THING THAT TIPPED OFF THE VIOLENCE.

THAT FITS THE IDEA THE FIRST JOB OF THE COMMITTEE IS SOME KIND OF ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE VERY NEAR BRUSH WE HAD WITH A COUP.

BUT THE OTHER THING TO THINK ABOUT HERE IS THAT THESE GROUPS HAVE WORKED TOGETHER OVER QUITE A LONG TIME SO THE WHITE POWER MOVEMENT IS A LOOSE SOCIAL MOVEMENT THAT BROUGHT TOGETHER A WHOLE BUNCH OF DIFFERENT IDEOLOGICAL VIEW POINTS ON THE RIGHT, FROM THE KLAN, TO SKINHEADS, NEO-NAZIS, TO THE MILITIA MOVEMENT, NOW TO GROUPS LIKE PROUD BOYS AND OATH KEEPERS AND OTHERS THAT WERE AT PLAY ON THE 6th.

SO WE HAVE SPENT A LOT OF TIME TALKING ABOUT THESE GROUPS AS DISPARATE WHEN IN FACT WE SHOULD THINK OF THEM AS A GROUND SWELL.

THIS WAS A VERY HELPFUL THING TO SEE DURING THE HEARINGS.

YOU REFERRED TO IT AS A WHITE POWER MOVEMENT.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT TERMINOLOGY.

SO WHITE POWER IS FIRST OF ALL WHAT THESE ACTIVISTS CALL THEMSELVES DURING THE EARLIER PART OF THEIR HISTORY WHICH IS WHAT I WRITE ABOUT FROM THE LATE 1970s TO THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING IN 1995.

AND THE REASON THEY USE THAT TERM AND THE REASON THAT I THINK IT IS A HELPFUL TERM IS THAT IT REALLY LAYS BARE THE VIOLENT AND REVOLUTIONARY CAPACITY OF THIS MOVEMENT.

I THINK SOMETIMES WHEN PEOPLE HEAR THE WORD ‘NATIONALISM’ AS IN WHITE NATIONALISM, THEY THINK OF SORT OF A PATRIOTISM RUN AMOK OR THE IDEA THAT THERE IS SOMETHING WHITE ABOUT THE AMERICAN NATION CULTURALLY OR LINGUISTICALLY OR HISTORICALLY THAT SHOULD BE PRESERVED.

THAT’S NOT WHAT THESE FOLKS TEND TO BE ABOUT.

THE WHITE POWER MOVEMENT IS INTERESTED IN, YOU KNOW, THE ERADICATION OF PEOPLE OF COLOR, WHITE HOMELAND, AND POSSIBLY EVEN A WHITE ETHNOSTATE OR ALL WHITE ACHIEVED THROUGH PROFOUND VIOLENCE AND WARFARE.

ONE THING THAT STRUCK ME ABOUT YOUR BOOK WHICH WE HEARD ABOUT AT YESTERDAY’S HEARINGS, TOO, IS TO WHAT EXTENT, TO A LARGE EXTENT THE WHITE POWER MOVEMENT IS NOT SUPER NATIONALIST BUT IS ANTISTATE.

THEY FELT THAT THE STATE WAS THE ENEMY.

THAT’S RIGHT.

THIS IS ONE OF THE BIG, UNRESOLVED CONFLICTS IN THE WAY OUR FOUNDING DOCUMENTS ARE ARRANGED.

AND I THINK I HEARD SOMEONE ON THE RADIO TALKING ABOUT ALEXANDER HAMILTON OR MAYBE THIS WAS IN ONE OF THE CLOSING STATEMENTS IN THE HEARING TALKING ABOUT ALEXANDER HAMILTON AND THINKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE CAPACITY OF THE GOVERNMENT TO LIMIT THE MOB, THE CAPITAL M MOB OF THE PEOPLE FROM COMMITTING VIOLENCE THAT MIGHT HURT THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS WHICH IS ONE IMPULSE.

THE OTHER IMPULSE THAT RUNS IN OUR SOCIETY IS THE CAPACITY OF THE PEOPLE, CAPITAL P, TO LIMIT THE STATE.

WHETHER THE MOB IS A SORT OF VIOLENT BODY THAT NEEDS TO BE CONSTRAINED BY THE STATE OR WHETHER THE STATE AS TYRANNICAL FORCE THAT NEEDS TO BE CONTAINED BY THE PEOPLE IS A CONTRADICTION WE’VE NEVER FULLY SORTED OUT.

YOU SEE IT COME UP OVER AND OVER IN THE HISTORY OF VIGILANTE MOVEMENTS IN THE UNITED STATES AS A SORT OF ALIBI FOR ALL KINDS OF VIOLENCE AND ALL KINDS OF ANTI-DEMOCRATIC ACTIVITY.

AND, CERTAINLY, THE TESTIMONY OF THE GENTLEMAN WHO WAS, HAD WORKED WITH THE OATH KEEPERS, WAS VERY CLEARLY IN LINE WITH THIS TALKING ABOUT HOW THE GROUP IMAGINED AN ARMED REVOLUTION, THEY THOUGHT ABOUT CREATING A DECK OF PLAYING CARDS WITH TARGETS, HOW THEY THOUGHT ABOUT TRAINING AND ARMAMENT, THE NEW INFORMATION WE’RE HEARING ABOUT NOT ONLY WEAPONS BUT EXPLOSIVES AND TACTICAL GEAR.

ALL OF THIS IS IN LINE WITH THE PARAMILITARY MOVEMENT THAT HAS BEEN WAGING WAR ON THE UNITED STATES SINCE AT LEAST THE EARLY 1980s AND HAS DONE SO LARGELY UNABATED OVER TIME.

IT IS A THREAT THAT HAS BECOME A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER NOT ONLY TO AMERICAN CITIZENS BUT ALSO TO OUR COUNTRY AS A WHOLE.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CONFUSED THE WHOLE THING WAS WAGING WAR, INSURRECTIONISTS AGAINST A BAD STATE, AND THEN DONALD TRUMP WHO IS ACTUALLY PRESIDENT TELLS THEM TO COME AND DO IT.

WAS TRUMP SOMEBODY WHO HELPED SORT OF ALTER WHAT THE IDEOLOGY WAS OF THE PROUD BOYS?

SO THIS IS A TRICKY QUESTION.

I THINK THE COMMITTEE HAS TWO DIFFERENT GOALS HERE OR AT LEAST SHOULD HAVE TWO DIFFERENT GOALS HERE.

ONE OF THEM IS ACCOUNTABILITY FOR FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS ADMINISTRATION FOR THE EVENTS OF JANUARY 6th AND THE ATTEMPT TO STOP THE PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER.

I THINK THAT’S THE FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS AND JUST THAT IS A HUGE EFFORT AND HAS I THINK COMMANDED MOST OF THE ATTENTION.

BUT THE OTHER GOAL SHOULD BE FOR US ALL TO COME AWAY FROM THIS WITH A CLEARER VIEW OF THIS GROUND SWELL OF WHITE POWER AND MILITANT RIGHT ACTIVITY THAT, YOU KNOW, MAY HAVE FOR A WHILE UNITED BEHIND PRESIDENT TRUMP, BUT CERTAINLY WAS NEVER FULLY IN ANYONE’S COMMAND AND, CERTAINLY, DID NOT STAND DOWN AFTER JANUARY 6th BUT REMAINS WITH US AS A LIVE AND MILITARIZED PRESENCE IN OUR SOCIETY THAT IS EVEN NOW CONTINUING A CAMPAIGN OF INTIMIDATING SCHOOL BOARDS, TRYING TO WAGE ATTACK ON STATE HOUSES, INFRINGE INTO LOCAL POLITICAL PROCESSES, DO INTIMIDATION CAMPAIGNS.

WE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT THE FOLKS ARRESTED IN THE U-HAUL IN COEUR D’LANE, IDAHO, AND THE MARCHES AGAINST PRIDE PARADES, THE MARCH IN BOSTON.

THIS IS ALL ROLLING ALONG AT A VERY FRENETIC PACE AS THE COMMITTEE IS TRYING TO TELL THIS STORY.

SO THE GROUND SWELL IS WHAT WE HAVE TO KEEP IN VIEW.

THIS GROUND SWELL OF WHITE, NATIONALIST, ARMED INSURRECTIONISTS IN YOUR BOOK, IT SURPRISED ME.

I HADN’T REALLY KNOWN THIS.

BEGINS AFTER VIETNAM OR SHOULD I SAY AMERICA’S FAILURE IN VIETNAM?

WHY DOES THAT HAPPEN AND HOW DOES THAT RESONATE TODAY?

INTERESTING CORRELATIONS IN RISES AND FALLS IN KLAN MEMBERSHIP, WHICH IS ONE OF THE LONGER SORT OF HISTORIES OF THIS KIND OF AN ACTIVITY THAT WE HAVE GOING BACK TO THE 1860s, IS THAT THEY CORRELATE MORE CLOSELY WITH THE AFTERMATH OF WARFARE THAN THEY DO WITH MOST OTHER CONTEXTUAL FACTORS.

SO THE AFTERMATH OF WARFARE IS A BETTER INDICATION THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE A SURGE IN FAR RIGHT ACTIVITY AND VIOLENCE THAN POVERTY OR IMMIGRATION OR CIVIL RIGHTS GAINS OR VARIOUS KINDS OF SOCIAL UNREST, MANY OTHER MEASURES PEOPLE HAVE LOOKED AT TO DETERMINE WHAT’S GOING ON HERE.

AND IT TURNS OUT THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT VETERANS, ALTHOUGH VETERANS DO BRING HIGH LEVELS OF TACTICAL AND WEAPONS EXPERTISE THAT REALLY ESCALATE THE CAPACITY OF THESE GROUPS TO DO HARM.

IT TURNS OUT THAT ALL OF US ARE MORE AVAILABLE FOR VIOLENCE IN THE AFTERMATH OF WAR.

ONE SOCIOLOGIST FOUND THAT MEASURE CUTS ACROSS GENDER, ACROSS AGE, ACROSS WHO DID AND DIDN’T SERVE IN COMBAT.

IT IS ALL AMERICANS WHO FIND THEMSELVES MORE AVAILABLE FOR VIOLENT REACTION AFTER WARFARE.

ALTHOUGH THE GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR WAS FOUGHT BY A SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE, OVER A VERY LONG STRETCH, IN WAYS THAT WERE OFTEN NOT VISIBLE TO MOST OF AMERICAN SOCIETY, WE’RE TALKING ABOUT OUR LONGEST WAR EVER, ONE THAT MY UNDER GRADUATES DON’T EVEN REMEMBER A TIME BEFORE 911.

THEY DON’T REMEMBER 9/11.

SO THE LEGACIES ARE WITH US AND CERTAINLY ARE POWERFUL MOTIVATORS FOR GROUPS LIKE THE OATH KEEPERS, FOCUSED ON THE TREATMENT OF VETERANS.

HOW GREAT IS THE MAGNITUDE, HOW WORRIED SHOULD WE BE ABOUT THIS MOVEMENT?

I THINK IT IS DIFFICULT TO BE TOO WORRIED ABOUT THIS AT PRESENT.

IN MY VIEW THERE ARE TWO MAJOR DANGERS POSED TO EVERYONE IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW FROM THIS MOVEMENT.

ONE OF THEM IS THAT GROUPS LIKE THE OATH KEEPERS AND THE PROUD BOYS BECOME A SORT OF PARAMILITARY SHOCK FORCE OF THE MOST EXTREME PARTS OF THE GOP AND LEAD US TOWARD A SORT OF AUTHORITARIAN POLITICS THAT IS ENFORCED BY VIOLENT ACTION, INTIMIDATION, AND ALL OF THE THINGS WE WOULD EXPECT FROM READING THE HISTORY OF THOSE MOVEMENTS.

THE OTHER IS THAT THERE WILL BE A CONTINGENT OF PEOPLE IN THOSE GROUPS, LIKE THE OATH KEEPERS AND THE PROUD BOYS, WHO ARE NOT AT ALL INTERESTED IN THE UNITED STATES OR GAINING POWER AS PART OF THE GOP, BUT WHO ARE ACTUALLY INTERESTED IN OVERTHROWING THE UNITED STATES AND CREATING THEIR OWN ETHNOSTATE, WHICH IS NOT AT ALL INTERESTED IN DEMOCRACY OR VOTING OR FREEDOM OR ANY OF THE THINGS I THINK OF AS PATRIOTIC.

BOTH OF THESE ARE DANGEROUS TO OUR SOCIETY AND I THINK ONE THING THE COMMITTEE IS SHOWING US IS THAT THE TIME TO RESPOND IS GROWING SHORT.

HOW IMPORTANT WAS TRUMP IN ALL OF THIS?

ONE OF THE WITNESSES SAID IT’S LUCKY WE HAVEN’T SEEN THIS BEFORE.

IT COULD HAVE HAPPENED BEFORE AFTER ANY ONE OF THESE INSURRECTIONS.

AND YET IT SEEMS TRUMP IS A PERSON WHO MAKES IT HAPPEN ON JANUARY 6th.

I AM CONVINCED THAT IS TRUE FROM A TACTICAL STANDPOINT IN THAT THE GO SIGNAL WAS TRUMP CALLING PEOPLE TO THE HILL.

I THINK THE TESTIMONY HAS SHOWN US THAT.

I’M NOT SURE HOW MUCH HE WAS IN COMMAND OF THE MOVEMENT.

I’M NOT SURE THAT WE DIDN’T ALREADY SEE OTHER ATTEMPTS AT THIS.

SO, I MEAN, MOST VIEWERS MIGHT NOT REALIZE THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING WAS NOT JUST THE WORK OF A FEW DISAFFECTED MAD MEN OR A LONE WOLF BUT PART OF THIS VERY CAREFULLY ORGANIZED DOMESTIC TERRORIST ATTEMPT TO DESTABILIZE THE GOVERNMENT AND BRING PEOPLE INTO THE WHITE POWER MOVEMENT.

AND IT WORKED BY THE WAY.

THE MILITIA MOVEMENT NUMBERS ROSE AFTER THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING AND I THINK FUTURE HISTORIANS WILL FIND THAT THAT SORT OF BUMP IN ACTIVITY FUELED US INTO THE WAVE THAT TAKES US TO UNITE THE RIGHT IN CHARLOTTESVILLE.

ALL OF THIS HAS A DEEP HISTORY, GOING BACK DECADES IF NOT GENERATIONS.

WE HAVE A LOT OF EXAMPLES OF HOW IT HAS WORKED.

THE OTHER PROBLEM HERE IS THAT THIS IS A MOVEMENT THAT OPERATES SIMULTANEOUSLY ABOVE GROUND WHERE WE CAN SEE IT, WHICH IS THE PROUD BOYS AND THE OATH KEEPERS AND, ALSO, UNDERGROUND WHERE IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO HAVE AN IN THE MOMENT SENSE OF WHAT’S HAPPENING.

WE GET LITTLE BITS WHEN WE READ ABOUT GROUPS, OTHER KIND OF PARAMILITARY STRIKE FORCE UNITS, BUT THE UNDERGROUND IS LARGELY OUT OF VIEW.

THE HISTORICAL ARCHIVE SHOWS US THAT WE WON’T HAVE THE FULL STORY ABOUT THAT PART OF IT FOR A GOOD LONG TIME, 10 OR 20 YEARS, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF MOMENTS LIKE THIS COMMITTEE WHERE WE GET ALL THIS INFORMATION, PEOPLE LEAVING THE GROUPS AND TALKING ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE DOING, WE GET LISTS OF WEAPONS, ASSET SEIZURES, PLEA BARGAINS.

THIS IS OUR OPPORTUNITY TO SEE BEHIND THE CURTAIN AND SO FAR WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS VERY ALARMING AND SHOULD ESCALATE EVERYONE’S SENSE OF URGENCY ABOUT THIS PROBLEM.

ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO TESTIFIED YESTERDAY WAS A SPOKES PERSON FOR THE OATH KEEPERS WHO THEN QUIT THE ORGANIZATION, SAID HE QUIT WHEN HE FOUND THEM ALL STANDING AROUND A STORE TALKING ABOUT HOW THE HOLOCAUST WAS MADE UP AND WAS FAKE.

TO WHAT EXTENT IS IT MORE THAN JUST WHITE POWER AND ANTI-SEMITISM AND OTHER THINGS ROLLED IN?

ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THE WHITE POWER MOVEMENT IS IT IS AN INCREDIBLY FLEXIBLE IDEOLOGICAL GROUP OF PEOPLE.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN IN THE 1980s FOR INSTANCE TO PUT A SORT OF TRADITIONAL, CHRISTIAN, WHITE SEPARATIST IN THE ROOM WITH HARD DRINKING, TATOOED, TOPLESS SKINHEAD, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HUGE SORT OF CONTORTIONS TO MAKE THAT OKAY WITH EVERYBODY.

THE THING THAT MOTIVATES THAT ABILITY TO BE FLEXIBLE AND BRING EVERYONE TOGETHER IS AN INTENSE SENSE OF EMERGENCY THAT THE WHITE RACE IS UNDER ATTACK AND WILL BE ERADICATED WITHOUT SWIFT ACTION.

SO THAT SENSE OF EMERGENCY IS ABLE TO PULL IN ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT SOCIAL ISSUES INTO ONE SORT OF CONSPIRATORIAL APOCALYPTIC BELIEF SYSTEM.

ANTI-SEMITISM AND THIS IDEOLOGY UNDERGIRDS ALL KINDS OF OTHER ISSUES WHETHER THEY ARE INTERESTED IN OPPOSING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, OPPOSING ABORTION, OPPOSING GAY RIGHTS, AVOIDING CONTACT WITH PEOPLE OF COLOR OR DOING VIOLENCE TO THOSE COMMUNITIES.

OPPOSING NON-CHRISTIAN PEOPLE, OF VARIOUS KINDS.

THE OTHER INTERESTING THING THAT WITNESS SAID DURING THE HEARING WAS THAT THE OATH KEEPERS WERE DELIBERATELY MISREPRESENTING THE FACT THAT THEY ARE A MILITIA GROUP, SAYING THEY WERE A VETERANS ADVOCACY GROUP.

THIS IS ALL DIRECTLY OUT OF THE PLAYBOOK OF THE WHITE POWER MOVEMENT.

THE ONE THAT SPRINGS TO MIND IS DAVID DUKE SAYING, OR FOLKS LIKE THAT SAYING I’M NOT RACIST.

I’M RACIALIST.

I’M NOT SEGREGATIONIST I AM SEPARATIST.

THEY ARE ALWAYS FIGURING OUT WHERE THEY CAN LAND WITHIN THE REALM OF SORT OF PUBLIC ACCEPTABILITY SO THAT THEY CAN RECRUIT AND RADICALIZE MORE PEOPLE.

ONE OF THE ODD THINGS ABOUT THE WHOLE OATH KEEPER MOVEMENT IS HOW PEOPLE LIKE GENERAL MICHAEL FLYNN SUDDENLY GOT SUCKED INTO THIS DERANGED VORTEX.

TO WHAT EXTENT IS IT AFFECTING MILITARY PEOPLE AND HOW DOES SOMEBODY LIKE MICHAEL FLYNN GET SO SUCKED INTO THIS?

THE SHORT ANSWER IS THAT THERE ARE AS MANY WAYS INTO THIS MOVEMENT AS THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE MOVEMENT.

PEOPLE FIND THIS KIND OF IDEOLOGY FOR ALL KINDS OF REASONS.

SOME ARE ABOUT DEEPLY HELD BELIEFS, SOME ARE ABOUT SOCIAL CONNECTIONS AND ULTERIOR MOTIVES.

THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF THINGS GOING ON.

AND I’M NOT SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES THERE IS SORT OF A CLEAR, PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILE.

I THINK IT IS SORT OF A, LIKE ANY SOCIAL MOVEMENT THERE IS A VARIETY OF THINGS HAPPENING.

WHAT I WILL SAY IS THAT IT’S VERY TYPICAL FOR THE WHITE POWER MOVEMENT TO TARGET ACTIVE DUTY SERVICE MEMBERS AND VETERANS FOR RECRUITMENT BECAUSE THEY WANT THOSE SKILLS THAT THOSE PEOPLE BRING.

AND I WILL SAY THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE HAS ONLY IN THE LAST TWO YEARS OR SO BEGUN THE PROCESS OF TAKING A TALLY OF HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE THIS KIND OF A BELIEF SYSTEM WITHIN THE ARMED FORCES.

PLAIN AND SIMPLE WE DON’T KNOW HOW BIG A PROBLEM IT IS BECAUSE NOBODY HAS BEEN KEEPING ACCURATE COUNT.

IT IS EVEN WORSE THAN POLICE OFFICER RECORD KEEPING BECAUSE THERE IS NO CENTRALIZED RECORD KEEPING THERE AT ALL.

PRESIDENT BIDEN ANNOUNCED A NATIONAL RESPONSE TO DOMESTIC TERRORISM.

THAT TOUCHED ON A LOT OF THIS.

WHAT IS YOUR THOUGHT ABOUT HIS PLAN AND WHAT MORE DO WE NEED TO BE DOING?

THAT PLAN IS A HUGE STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

AS ARE THE SORT OF STRING OF REPORTS THAT HAVE COME FROM DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY AND FBI SAYING THAT THIS WHITE POWER DOMESTIC TERRORISM IS THE BIGGEST TERRORIST THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES AT PRESENT.

THIS IS IT.

THIS IS THE BIG ONE WE NEED TO BE ORGANIZING AROUND.

AND ALLOCATING RESOURCES TO.

AND FIGURING OUT HOW TO SURVEY AND DO ALL OF THESE THINGS.

THIS MOVEMENT HAS BEEN ON THE MARCH SINCE THE 1970s AND DECLARED WAR FORMALLY ON THE UNITED STATES IN 1983.

WE HAVE A FEW YEARS OF WILL AND RESOURCES AND EXPERTISE DEVOTED TO THE PROBLEM.

SO THE QUESTION IS GOING TO BE HOW QUICKLY WE CAN CATCH UP, HOW MUCH WILL THERE IS TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

AND WHETHER IT WILL BE ENOUGH.

PROFESSOR KATHLEEN BALLOU, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.