>>> NEXT, A CRUCIAL MESSAGE ON

FACING A TERRIBLE HISTORY FOR

HIS LATEST PIECE, THE AUTHOR AND

ATLANTIC STAFF WRITER EXAMINES

WHAT AMERICA CAN LEARN CALLED

MONUMENTS TO THE UNTHINKABLE

DOCUMENTING EXPENSIVE TRAVELS

THROUGH GERMANY DISCOVERING

NATIONWIDE EFFORTS TO REMEMBER.

IN THIS CONVERSATION, HE IS

SHARING WHAT HE LEARNED WITH

MICHELLE MARTIN AND THIS

INTERVIEW IS PART OF EXPLORING

HATE, OUR ON GOING SERIES ON

ANTI-SEMITISM, RACISM AND

EXTREMISM.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

CLINT SMITH, THANKS FOR TALKING

TO US.

>> SO GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> YOU'VE BEEN INTERESTED IN THE

TOPIC OF PUBLIC MEMORY AND HOW

PEOPLE AND NATIONS AND

COMMUNITIES SHOULD ACCOUNT FOR

THE PAST.

YOUR MOST RECENT BOOK HOW THE

WORD IS PASSED JUST WAS A VERY

BEAUTIFULLY REVIEWED, VERY MUCH

ACCLAIMED, VERY MUCH APPRECIATED

BY THE PUBLIC AND EXAMINED HOW

DIFFERENT HISTORICAL SIGHTS

ACROSS THE UNITED STATES RECKON

WITH OR DON'T.

IF YOUR LATEST PIECE FOR "THE

ATLANTIC" YOU GO TO GERMANY TO

CONTINUE THE EXAMINATION.

WHY GERMANY?

>> GERMANY IS OFTEN LIFTED UP AS

AN EXEMPLAR, VERY ENGAGED AND

VERY DIRECT AND VERY

TRANSPARENT, VERY COMPREHENSIVE

IN THE WAY THAT THEY ACCOUNT FOR

THE CRIMES OF THEIR PAST AND

WHAT THE GERMAN STATE DID DURING

THE HOLOCAUST.

AND SO FOR ME, BOTH AS A PERSON,

AS A WRITER, AS A JOURNALIST, IT

FELT INCUMBENT UPON ME TO GO TO

THIS PLACE REGARDLESS OF WHETHER

OR NOT I WAS GOING TO WRITE

ABOUT IT TO TRY TO GET A DEEPER

SENSE OF HOW DOES GERMANY TELL

THE STORY OF ITS PAST?

AND ONE OF THE THINGS I WAS

INTERESTED IN IS SO MUCH OF WHAT

GERMANY DOES IS AN ACTUAL

INTERNAL REFLECTION, HOW MUCH OF

WHAT THE EXISTENCE IS REFLECTED

ON DEEP INTERNAL SORT OF

REFLECTION ON THE PAST.

HOW MUCH PERFORMANCE FOR THE

REST OF THE WORLD AND HOW MUCH

IS BOTH.

>> I CERTAINLY LEARNED A LOT OF

THINGS FOR YOUR PIECE.

WAS IT SURPRISING TO ME A LOT OF

COMMEMORATIVE SITES IN THE

1890s, SO LONG OF THE EVENTS

THEY COMMEMORATE TAKE PLACE?

>> WESTERN GERMANY CONTROLLED BY

FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT POWERS

AND THIS WAS THE BEGINNING OF

THE COLD WAR AND PEOPLE'S

NOTIONS OF WHO PLAYED WHAT ROLE

IN THE WINNING OF THE WAR SHAPED

HOW MEMORIALS AND MONUMENTS WERE

BEING ERECTED SO THAT WAS PART

OF IT.

WHAT PEOPLE DON'T ALWAYS

CONSIDER IS THAT THERE WAS

ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF SHAME AND

ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF GRIEF, NOT

ONLY DID GERMANY LOSE THE WAR

BUT PEOPLE LOST FAMILY MEMBERS

AS A RESULT OF THE WAR.

AND NOW THEY'RE BEING TOLD BY

THE REST OF THE WAR THAT THE

CAUSE THAT THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS

DIED FOR WAS A HORRIFIC THING,

THAT THEY ARE EVIL PEOPLE.

THEY FOUGHT FOR AN EVIL LEADER

SO THERE IS THIS SORT OF GRIEF

AND MOURNING AND SHAME AND

CONFUSION THAT ULTIMATELY

RESULTS IN THIS PROFOUND

SILENCE.

PEOPLE JUST DON'T WANT TO TALK

ABOUT IT.

PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO HAVE

CONVERSATIONS ABOUT WHAT THEY

WERE DOING DURING THE WAR, WERE

THEY PARTICIPAPARTICIPATING?

DID THEY WATCH.

THERE WAS LARGELY LITTLE

CONVERSATION ABOUT THE HOLE CAST

AND IT WASN'T UNTIL PEOPLE'S

CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN BEGAN

ASKING QUESTIONS AND SAYING, YOU

KNOW, GRANDMA, WHERE WERE YOU

WHEN THIS WAS HAPPENING?

GRANDPA, WERE YOU IN THE ARMY?

WERE YOU WATCHING AS JEWISH

FAMILIES WERE SENT DOWN THE

STREET?

IT IS THOSE TWO GENERATIONS

LATER IN WHICH THE CONVERSATION

BEGINS DETOUR RENT AND RESULTS

IN THE MEMORIALS COMING UP.

THE MURDER JEWS OF EUROPE AND

THE FIRST SANCTION HOLOCAUST

MEMORIAL DIDN'T GO UNTIL I

BELIEVE 2005.

OR WASN'T OPEN UNTIL 2005.

IT DID TAKE TIME AND IT WASN'T

IMMEDIATE AND I THINK THAT

THAT'S BECAUSE THERE WAS A LOT

OF SHAME AND SILENCE THAT PEOPLE

HAD TO WORK THROUGH OVER THE

COURSE OF GENERATIONS.

>> SO YOU WENT TO GERMANY IN

PART TO DRAW CONNECTION TO THE

AMERICAN EXPERIENCE AND THE

CURRENT AMERICAN EXPERIENCE OF

RECKONING OR NOT AS THE CASE MAY

BE WITH ATROCITIES AND THE

AMERICAN EXPERIENCE.

SO FIRST OF ALL, YOU KNOW, WHAT

DOES GERMANY HAVE TO TEACH

AMERICA ABOUT THIS?

WHAT CONCLUSIONS DID YOU DRAW?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I HADN'T

FULLY CONSIDERED AND DIDN'T

FULLY REALIZE UNTIL I WAS THERE

WAS THE PROFOUND DIFFERENCES IN

TERMS OF THE POPULATION OF

PEOPLE WITH REGARD TO HOW MANY

JEWS ARE LEFT IN GERMANY AND HOW

MANY ARE LEFT IN THE UNITED

STATES.

IN GERMANY THERE IS UNDER

150,000 JEWISH PEOPLE LEFT IN

THE COUNTRY.

THEY REPRESENT REPRESENT LESS

THAN A

QUARTER OF A %.

THERE ARE MORE JEWISH PEOPLE IN

BOSTON THAN THE GERMAN NATION.

THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT THAN THE

UNITED STATES WHERE IN THE U.S.

THERE ARE 40 MILLION BLACK

PEOPLE AND WE REPRESENT A

MASSIVE SOCIAL POLITICAL AND

ECONOMIC BLOCK.

AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT

JEWISH FOLKS IN GERMANY WOULD

TELL ME IS THAT IT'S EASY FOR

GERMANS TO BUILD MONUMENTS AND

MEMORIALS AND MUSEUMS TO WHAT

HAPPENED IN THE HOLOCAUST TO

WHAT -- TO JEWISH FAMILIES TO

LAY WREATHS DOWN ON CERTAIN DAYS

OF THE YEAR BECAUSE AS THEY PUT

IT, JEWISH PEOPLE ARE MORE

HISTORICAL ABSTRACTIONS THAN

THEY ARE ACTUAL PEOPLE.

AND AGAIN, THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT

THAN HERE WHEREAS IF ONE IS TO

PUT UP A MONUMENT OR LAY A

WREATH DOWN TO ACCOUNT FOR WHAT

AN AAPARTHEID DID TO BLACK

PEOPLE, YOU CAN'T SIMPLY PUT A

WREATH DOWN AND THEN NOT LOOK

AROUND AND SEE 40 MILLION PEOPLE

WHO ARE EXPERIENCING THE DIRECT

REMANENCE AND RESIDUE OF THE

SYSTEMS THAT CREATED THIS

VIOLENCE AND THIS OPPRESSION AND

THESE DISTORTIONS.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE

ARE MUCH LESS WILLING TO DO.

RIGHT?

I THINK IT IS EASIER TO

APOLOGIZE AND TO CREATE OBJECTS

OF MEMORY TO A GROUP OF PEOPLE

THAT MOST GERMANS DON'T HAVE A

RELATIONSHIP.

MANY GERMANS DON'T KNOW A JEWISH

PERSON.

DON'T SPEND TIME WITH JEWISH

PEOPLE AND THAT'S ONE OF THE

MOST PROFOUND DIFFERENCES THAT

EXISTS BETWEEN A THE TWO NATIONS

AND STILL, I THINK IT IS HELPFUL

TO THINK ABOUT HOW THE SITES OF

MEMORY AND MONUMENTS OF MEMORY

ARE IN GERMANY, RIGHT AND THERE

IS SOMETHING ABOUT, YOU KNOW,

TENS OF THOUSANDS OF THESE

STUMBLING STONE AND IT'S SO

POWERFUL.

YOU GO WALK DOWN THE STREET OF

BERLIN IN THE MIDDLE OF THESE

COBBLESTONE SIDEWALKS, YOU'LL

SEE A STUMBLING STONE WITH THE

BIRTHDAY, THE DATE THE PERSON

WAS DEPORTED, THE DATE THEY WERE

KILLED AND WHERE THEY WERE

KILLED AND YOU LOOK DOWN AND YOU

CAN LOOK UP AND YOU SEE THE HOME

THAT THIS PERSON LIVED IN OF THE

SYNAGOGUE THEY ATTENDED OR THE

APARTMENT THEY LIVED IN BECAUSE

OF THE DATES YOU CAN TELL THE

CHILDREN WHO ARE THE PARENTS,

WHO ARE THE GRAND PARENTS AND

INTIMACY AND PROXIMITY TO THE

HISTORY THAT I FOUND SO STRIKING

AND ONE OF THE WOMEN WHO I WAS

SPENDING TIME WITH, THERE WERE

SOME STUMBLING STONES IN FRONT

OF HER HOME AND WE WERE TALKING

ABOUT WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE IF

THERE WERE -- YOU KNOW, SHE KNEW

I WAS FROM NEW ORLEANS, WHICH

WAS ONCE THE LARGEST AND

BUSINESSEST SLAVE MARKET IN THE

COUNTRY.

SHE KNEW I WAS THE DESCENDENT OF

SLAVED PEOPLE.

CAN YOU IMAGINE IF IN NEW

ORLEANS THERE WERE STUMBLING

STONES WHERE ENSLAVED PEOPLE

WERE SLAVED AND PERSECUTED?

SHE SAID THE STREETS WOULD BE

PACKED.

THE ENTIRE CITY WOULD BE PAVED

IN BRASS STONES.

HOW DIFFERENT WOULD OUR SENSE OF

WHAT HAPPENED BE IN THE U.S. IF

WE WERE ENCOUNTERING DAILY

REMINDERS OF WHAT HAD BEEN DONE

IN THESE SPACES?

THAT'S NOT TO SAY THAT MEMORIALS

AND ANYTHING ELSE WILL SUDDENLY

SOLVE ALL OF OUR PROBLEMS OF

NATIONAL MEMORY BUT I DO THINK

IT CREATES A FUNDAMENTALLY

DIFFERENT LANDSCAPE THAT PEOPLE

NAVIGATE AND THEY UNDERSTAND THE

RELATIONSHIP OF PLACES TO THE

PAST.

>> WHY DON'T WE?

WHAT CONCLUSION DID YOU DRAW WHY

IN THE U.S. WE DON'T ENCOUNTER

THOSE KINDS OF REMINDERS ON

A

DAILY BASIS?

>> WE WERE TALKING HOW LONG IT

TOOK GERMANY TO BUILD MONUMENTS

AND MEMORIALS TO THE HOLE CAST.

-- HOLOCAUST.

THE WAR ENDED IN 1945 AND

STUMBLING STONES DIDN'T EMERGE

UNTIL 1976.

THE NATIONAL MUSEUM OF AFRICAN

AMERICAN HISTORY AND CULTURE

OPENED IN 2016.

AGAIN, LIKE 150 YEARS AFTER THE

END OF SLAVERY, WHICH THE ENTIRE

FIRST FLOOR OF THAT BUILDING IS

DEDICATED TO.

WE STILL DON'T HAVEMUSEUM IN

THIS COUNTRY SINGULARLY

DEDICATED TO TELLING THE STORY

OF SLAVERY AS IMPORTANT AS THE

NATIONAL MUSEUM IS.

IT SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT HOW LONG

IT'S TAKEN US TO FINALLY BE ABLE

TO HAVE HONEST ROBUST GROUNDED

AND ACCURATE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT

THE COUNTRY AND PART OF IT, PART

OF THE REASON IT'S SO DISTORTED

AND PART OF THE REASON IT'S

TAKEN SO LONG IS BECAUSE OF THE

SUCCESS FOR THE LOST CAUSE.

PROPAGANDA AFTER THE END OF THE

CIVIL WAR WHERE PEOPLE OFTEN SAY

THE SOUTH LOSE THE WAR BUT THEY

WON THE PEACE SAYING THEY

CREATED NARRATIVES IN WHICH THEY

SUGGESTED SLAVERY HAD NOTHING TO

DO WITH THE CIVIL WAR, EVEN IF

IT DID, SLAVERY WASN'T THAT BAD.

IT WAS BENIGN.

CIVILIZED INSTITUTION LIKE THE

LATE SOUTH CAROLINA SENATOR

SAID.

IT WAS A POSITIVE GOOD FOR BLACK

AND WHITE PEOPLE ALIKE.

THESE ARE THE MESSAGES THAT TOOK

HOLD IN THE AMERICAN PUBLIC

CONSCIOUSNESS AND IT WASN'T

UNTIL THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT

THAT PEOPLE BEGAN TO THINK ABOUT

SLAVERY AS SOMETHING THAT WAS

BAD TO BEGIN WITH.

RIGHT?

BECAUSE SO MUCH OF THE MESSAGING

COULD BE TIED TO SLAVERY BEING

AN INSTITUTION THAT WAS ACTUALLY

BENEFICIAL FOR BLACK AMERICANS.

SO WE ARE ONLY IN THE BEGINNING

STAGES IN THIS SORT OF GRAND

SCHEME OF THING, I THINK, WE'RE

STILL IN THE BEGINNING STAGES OF

BEGINNING TO MORE ROBUSTLY

ENCOUNTER AND ENGAGE WITH THE

HORROR THAT SLAVERY WAS BOTH ON

A PERSONAL SCALE, ON AN

EMOTIONAL SCALE BUT ALSO IN

TERMS OF THE VAST SORT OF

SYSTEMIC VIOLENCE ENACTED ON AN

ENTIRE DEMOGRAPHIC PEOPLE.

>> GERMANY IS SEEING SIMILAR TO

WHAT WE'RE SEEING HERE IN THE

UNITED STATES.

LAST YEAR IN 2021 IF I HAD MY

FACTS CORRECT, THE INCIDENTS

REACHED AN ALL-TIME HIGH WITH

RACIST ATTACKS DIRECTED AT OTHER

GROUPS WHICH, YOU KNOW, WE'VE

ALSO TALKED ABOUT.

HOW DO YOU -- WHAT MAKES THE

CASE FOR YOU THAT CONFRONTING

THIS HISTORY EVERY DAY IS MAKING

A DIFFERENCE?

>> I THINK IT'S A DIFFICULT

THING TO DO IN THE SENSE THAT

HOW DO WE IMAGINE WHAT GERMAN

SORT OF POLITICAL SOCIAL

ECOSYSTEM OF GERMANY WOULD BE

TODAY IF THERE WERE NO

REMINDERS, RIGHT?

IF ON, YOU KNOW, THE HOLOCAUST

AND SLAVERY ARE A DIFFERENT

PHENOMENON BUT COULD BE

DIFFERENT TO COMPARE THEM.

HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, ONE

OF THE PLACES I WENT FOR MY BOOK

WAS ANGOLA PRISON.

THE LARGEST MAXIMUM-SECURITY

PRISON IN THE COUNTRY.

18,000 ACRES WIDE BIGGER THAN

MANHATTAN WHERE 75% OF PEOPLE

THERE HELD ARE BLACK MEN AND

SERVING LIFE SENTENCES AND BUILT

ON TOP OF A FORMER PLANTATION.

I WENT FOR THIS PIECE AND HAD

THIS MOMENT WHERE I WAS STANDING

THERE IN THIS CONCENTRATION CAMP

WHERE TENS OF THOUSANDS WERE

KILLED AND IT'S THIS HAUNTING

VAST EXPANSIVE GRAY AND YOU LOOK

TO THE LEFT, THE REMANENCE OF

CREMATORIUM AND SKELETONS AND

BARRACKS.

I CLOSED MY EYES AND TRIED TO

IMAGINE WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE IF

ON THAT LAND THERE WAS A PRISON

AND IN THAT PRISON THE VAST

MAJOR OF THE PEOPLE HELD THERE

WERE JEWISH.

EVER ALLOWING SOMETHING LIKE

THAT TO EXIST BUT HERE IN THE

UNITED STATES, WE HAVE THE

LARGEST MAXIMUM-SECURITY PRISON

IN THE COUNTRY SERVING LIFE

SENTENCES AND PEOPLE WATCH OVER

THEM ON HORSEBACK WITH GUNS ON

THEIR SHOULDERS WHILE THEY PICK

CROPS FOR PENNIES ON THE HOUR ON

TOP OF A FORMER PLANTATION SO

PART OF, I THINK, THERE IS THE

SORT OF IMPLICATIONS OF FAILING

TO REMEMBER, MANIFEST THEMSELVES

IN VERY WELL SOCIAL AND

POLITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE.

SO FOR THE PEOPLE THAT ARE ON

THAT LAND IN THESE SPACES THAT

HISTORY FEELS ACUTE WITH

METAPHORS IN THEIR BODIES AND

THEIR HANDS AND THAT IS A

PROFOUND REASON.

THE REASON ANGOLA EXISTS ON A

FORMER PLANTATION, THE LARGEST

PROFOUND FAILURE OF OUR

COLLECTIVE MEMORY TO UNDERSTAND

THAT AS BEING UNACCEPTABLE.

THERE ARE SMALLER AND DIFFERENT

EXAMPLES OF THAT IN EVERY SECTOR

OF OUR SOCIETY IN WAYS THAT ARE

OFTEN ILLEGAL.

IN GERMANY YOU CAN'T DENY THE

HOLOCAUST.

THAT'S AGAINST THE LAW.

THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS YOU CAN

AND CAN'T SAY BECAUSE IT'S CLEAR

THAT IT WOULD INVOKE AND BRING

BACK THIS THING THIS COUNTRY IS

TRYING TO MOVE PAST AND ARE RECK

-- RECOGNITION ONE HAS FREEDOM

OF SPEECH BUT THERE ARE LIMITS

TO THE WAYS IN WHICH PEOPLE CAN

DEPLOY THAT SPEECH.

>> I'M STILL WONDERING HOW THEN,

HOW DO YOU MOVE THE BALL ALONG.

AS YOU POINT OUT IN YOUR PIECE,

THIS IS A COUPLE GENERATIONS IN

GERMANY.

IT REALLY THE CHILDREN AND

GRANDCHILDREN OF THE HOLOCAUST

GENERATION THAT REALLY DEMANDED

THAT THEIR ELDERS DEAL WITH THIS

HISTORY.

THE QUESTION BECOMES LIKE WHEN

DOES THIS HAPPEN IN THE UNITED

STATES?

DESCENDANTS OF CONFEDERATE

GENERALS THAT PLAYED PROMINENT

ROLES IN DEMANDING CONFEDERATE

BE REMOVED IN SOME PARTS OF THE

COUNTRY.

RIGHT NOW WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF

A MOVEMENT AGAINST THAT.

WE HAVE POLITICAL CANDIDATES

THAT RAN FOR OFFICE FACING THEIR

PUBLIC STANCES IN RECKONING.

HOW DID YOU MOVE IT ALONG?

DID GERMANY GIVE YOU LESSONS?

>> THE MAIN THING GERMANY TAUGHT

ME IS DON'T WAIT FOR YOUR

GOVERNMENT TO DO THESE THINGS.

WHEN THE ARTIST THAT CREATED THE

STUMBLING STONES PUT THEM IN THE

GROUND, THAT WASN'T A STATE

SANCTIONED PROGRAM AND THE

GOVERNMENT TRIED TO STOP THEM

AND REALIZED THERE WAS SUCH WIDE

SUPPORT THEY EVENTUALLY BEGAN TO

SUPPORT HIS WORK.

THE MEMORIAL TO THE MURDER JEWS

OF EUROPE DIDN'T JUST EMERGE

FROM THE SORT OF GOODNESS OF THE

GOVERNMENT'S HEART.

THEY WERE PEOPLE WHO STOOD ON

STREET CORNERS FOR YEARS

COLLECTING SIGNATURES PRESSURING

OFFICIALS FOR YEARS AND YEARS

FOR DECADES TRYING TO PUSH THE

COUNTRY TO SAY HOW CAN WE NOT

HAVE A MEMORIAL TO THE WORST

THING THIS COUNTRY HAS EVER

DONE, ONE OF THE WORST THINGS

THAT'S HAPPENS IN MODERN

HISTORY?

HOW CAN WE NOT HAVE SOMETHING

THAT IS LIKE A VERY CLEAR

REFLECTION OF OUR CONTRUGS OF

OUR COMMITMENT TO NEVER GOING

BACK TO THAT VERSION OF

OURSELVES.

IF ANYTHING, THERE'S A MORE

DESIRE TO CONTINUE TO PUSH

FORWARD WITH THIS AMID THE RISE

OF ANTI-SEMITISM AND HERE, THERE

ARE SOME EXAMPLES OF THAT.

THERE IS EXAMPLES OF BRIAN

STEPHENSON AND TEACHERS AND

STUDENTS IN CONNECTICUT THAT

BEGAN THE WITNESS STONES PROJECT

SIMILAR TO THE STUMBLING STONES

FAING THEM WHERE PEOPLE WERE

ENSLAVED AND HELD AND ALL SORTS

OF PLACES HAVE SMALLER VERSIONS

OF THIS.

ULTIMATELY, IT IS THE SMALL

NEIGHBORHOOD COMMUNITY AND CITY

BASED INITIATIVES THAT MAKE THE

MOST IMPACT AND HAVE THE MOST

POTENTIAL TO CHANGE MINDS AND

HEARTS AND THE UNDERSTANDING OUR

OURSELVES.

>> CLINT SMITH, THANK YOU FOR

TALKING TO US.

>> THANK YOU.