NOW WE TURN TO A MAN THAT’S DEDICATED HIS LIFE TO FIGHTING FOR HIS COUNTRY IN A GROWING WAR AGAINST FASCISM.

OUR NEXT GUEST IRAQ ARMY VETERAN CHRIS GOLDSMITH IS THE FOUNDER OF THE TASK FORCE BUTLER INSTITUTE NONPROFIT WITH A MISSION TO TACKLE RIGHT WING EXTREMIST MOVEMENTS TAKING HOLD ESPECIALLY AMONG SOME OF HIS FELLOW VETS AND JOINS HARRY TO DISCUSS THIS PHENOMENON AND CHALLENGES WITHIN HIS WORK.

THIS INTERVIEW IS PART OF EXPLORING HATE, OUR ON GOING SERIES ON ANTI-SEMITISM, RACISM AND EXTREMISM.

THANKS, CHRIS GOLDSMITH, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

LAST TIME WE SPOKE BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, I WAS THUMBING THROUGH A FOLDER FULL OF THE SCREEN SHOTS YOU HAD OF HOW ESSENTIALLY VETERANS WERE BEING TARGETED WITH MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION AND GIVEN THE WORK THAT YOU’RE DOING NOW, WHILE WE’RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION, YOU SAY THAT’S IN THE BACK OF YOUR MIND.

WHY?

WHAT’S THE BIGGER THREAT?

WELL, REALLY, MY RESEARCH INTO DISINFORMATION TARGETING VETERANS IS WHAT I’M DOING NOW IS AN EXTENSION OF IT WHICH IS STUDYING EXTREMISM AND NOT JUST STUDYING IT BUT WITH MY NON-PROFIT INSTITUTE WORKING WITH OTHER VETERANS TO ACTUALLY BRING THE FIGHT TO EXTREMISTS THAT ARE CAUSING HARM TO VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES AROUND THE COUNTRY.

SO BACK IN OCTOBER, WE HAD THE HOUSE ARMED SERVICES OR VETERANS AFFAIRS COMMITTEE TALKING ABOUT THE NUMBER OF VETERANS WHO HAVE BECOME MITTING CRIMES AND THAT HAS MORE THAN QUADRUPLED BETWEEN 2010 AND 2022.

WE’RE FOCUSSING SPECIFICALLY ON CRIMES RELATED TO EXTREMISM.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

THE SURGE IN CRIMINAL ACTIVITY AMONG VETERANS IS I THINK REFLECTION OF REFLECTION OF THE WAY THAT POLITICS HAS RADICALIZED A LOT OF FOLKS ON THE RIGHT AND NOW TO BE CLEAR, VETERANS AREN’T INHERENTLY VULNERABLE TO RADICALIZATION BUT THERE IS A VERY CONCERTED EFFORT TO TARGET VETERANS.

THE SAME REASONS THAT THE RUSSIANS TARGETED VETERANS THE SAME REASON WHY THE FAR RIGHT TARGETS VETERANS AND THE SAME REASON WHY FORTUNE 500 RECRUITERS VETERANS.

THAT’S BECAUSE VETERANS ARE INFLUENTIAL.

AMERICANS HAVE A CERTAIN RESPECT FOR VETERANS THEY DON’T HAVE FOR OTHER PARTS OF OUR SOCIETY AND VETERANS ARE MORE LIKELY WHEN THEY GET OUT IN THE MILITARY, THERE IS A LOT OF NEGATIVE STEREO TYPES LIKE PTSD.

WE ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE COMMUNITY LEADERS AND NOT JUST GETTING ELECTED BUT ALSO THINGS LIKE SOCCER COACH OR GIRL SCOUT LEADER.

SO VETERANS HAVE BEEN TARGETED BY EXTERNAL ACTORS AND INTERNAL ACTORS THAT WANT TO PRAY ON THE SYMBOLISM OF MILITARY SERVICE OF PATRIOTISM AND GAIN THE CREDIBILITY THAT VETERANS BRING TO ANY MOVEMENT OR ANY ORGANIZATION.

SO WHAT IS IT THAT IS KIND OF THE PRECONDITION THEY’RE PRAYING UPON TO HARNESS TO DO SOMETHING WE CONSIDER BAD?

IS THE PLIGHT OF THEM BEING INFLUENCED BY WHITE SUPREMACISTS, RADICAL EXTREMISTS?

TO BE CLEAR, I’VE NOT SEEN CONVINCING EVIDENCE THAT SAYS VETERANS ARE PARTICULARLY VULNERABLE TO RADICALIZATION BUT EXTREMISTS ORGANIZATIONS AND HOSTILE FOREIGN ACTORS RECOGNIZE THAT SOME VETERANS, THEIR MILITARY EXPERIENCES CAN LEAVE THEM VULNERABLE AND ANGRY I LEFT THE MILITARY AFTER FIGHTING IN IRAQ AND SPEMT A YEAR THERE.

AT THE END OF MY TEENS, MY EARLY 20s AND FELT THE WAR WAS POINTLESS.

A LOT OF VETERANS FELT LIKE THAT BETWEEN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN.

WE’VE SEEN OUR FRIENDS NOT JUST GET HURT IN COMBAT BUT DIE BY SUICIDE, STRUGGLE WITH UNTREATED POSTTRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER OR TRAUMATIC BRAIN INJURIES OR DIVORCE.

I MEAN, THE INSTABILITY OF MILITARY LIFE THAT CAN BRING TO YOUR FAMILY IS TREMENDOUS AND IF SOMEONE JOINS THE MILITARY AND THEY ARE KICKED OUT OF THE MILITARY WITH A BAD PAPER DISCHARGE AND DENIED ACCESS TO CRITICAL BENEFITS THAT ARE MEANT TO HELP VETERANS TRANSITION BACK INTO SOCIETY LIKE HEALTH CARE, LIKE THE G.I. BILL, THOSE PARTICULAR VETERANS LIKE I WAS MYSELF IN 2007 START TO LOOK FOR ANSWERS AND SOMETIMES CONSPIRACY THEORIES CAN FILL THOSE VOIDS.

IN MY CASE, I FELT LIKE THE MILITARY LIED TO ME.

FELT LIKE AMERICA LIED TO ME WHEN THEY SENT ME TO IRAQ.

I JOINED AFTER 9/11.

THE IRAQ WAR WAS ALREADY GOING BUT I DIDN’T SEE WHY WE WERE THERE THREE YEARS IN.

I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE QUICK, RIGHT?

ONCE I FELT LIKE THE GOVERNMENT LIED TO ME, ONCE I FELT LIKE AMERICA HAD MISLEAD ME I WAS EXTREMELY ANGRY AND CONFUSED.

I HAD DEDICATED EVERYTHING TO THE MILITARY, TO MY COUNTRY AND I FELT BETRAYED.

NOW, THANKFULLY, I HAD ACCESS TO THE V.A. AND OVER YEARS OF THERAPY WAS PULLED OUT OF THAT DARK HOLE BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF FOLKS WHO EXPERIENCED REALLY TERRIBLE THINGS AND HAVE LEGITIMATE GRIEVANCES AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT.

AND THOSE FOLKS CAN BE MANIPULATED INTO INTENSIFYING THEIR ANGER AND INTENSIFYING THEIR BLAME TOWARDS OTHERS FOR PROBLEMS.

THE THINGS THAT MAKE A VETERAN VULNERABLE TO RADICALIZATION OR INSANE THINGS THAT MAKE ANYBODY ELSE VULNERABLE AND THAT’S ECONOMIC INSTABILITY.

IT’S SOCIETALS INSTABILITY.

NOW, FOR SOME PEOPLE THAT SOCIETY INSTABILITY IF A WHITE SUPREMACIST ORGANIZATION STARTS GIVING THE PERSON A BAD GUY OR A GROUP THAT IS TO BLAME WHETHER IT BE PGs OR, YOU KNOW, SOME SORT OF SECRET THING OF ANY KIND OF SPREAD ANTIS-SEMITIC CONSPIRACY THEORIES AGAINST THIS PERSON, THAT CAN SEND THEM INTO A CYCLE OF SELF-RADICALIZATION.

WE SEE RADICALIZATION HAPPEN ON MAIN STREAM PLATFORMS IF A PERSON STARTS GETTING KICKED OFF THE MAIN STREAM PLATFORMS AND END UP ON PLACES LIKE TELEGRAM AND ODYSSEY WHERE THERE ARE NO LONGER ANY DISSENTING VOICES SO THEIR REALITY, THEIR PERCEPTION OF REALITY CAN BE ALTERED IN A WAY THAT CAN BRING THEM TO VIOLENCE, IN A WAY THAT CAN MAKE THEM FEEL LIKE THEY ARE VICTIMS AND THEY ARE UNDER PHYSICAL THREAT, THAT THEY ARE UNSAFE AND WITH THAT, THEY ARE MOTIVATED TO LASH OUT, TO COMMIT VIOLENCE AND ENGAGE IN ACTS OF HATE.

SO TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE INITIATIVE YOU’RE WORKING ON NOW.

WHAT MADE YOU KIND OF FLIP THE SWITCH FROM DOCUMENTING HOW VETERANS WERE BEING TARGETED AND HOW THESE DIFFERENT GROUPS WERE COMMUNICATING TO WANTING TO DO WHAT YOU’RE DOING TODAY, TAKE A MUCH MORE ACTIVE STANCE.

SO WHEN I WORKED FOR A MAJOR VETERAN’S SERVICE ORGANIZATION THE LAST TIME WE MET EACH OTHER, JUST BEFORE THE PANDEMIC STARTED, I WAS GIVEN THE DIRECTIVE OF FOCUS EXTERNALLY BECAUSE IF I WAS WRITING IN A PAPER OR RESEARCH PAPER ABOUT DISINFORMATION AND HOW IT WAS AFFECTING AMERICAN VETERANS, I WOULD HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT THEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND ALL OF THE LIES THAT HE SPEWED ABOUT ELECTIONS AND COVID AND ALL THE REST.

WELL, BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC, I GOT LAID OFF AND THEN I HAD A LOT OF TIME ON MY HANDS AND A BUDDY I SERVED WITH WHO HAS A LOT OF TIME ON HIS HANDS, TOO, AND HE’S AN INTERESTING GUY CALLED ME UP OUT OF THE BLUE AND SAID HEY, GOLDIE, I JOINED A NEO NAZI ORGANIZATION.

HELP ME TAKE THEM DOWN.

NO PREVIOUS CONVERSATION.

THAT’S JUST THE WAY IT HAPPENED.

AND I DID.

SO HE AND I WERE INSIDE OF THE NEO NAZI GROUP PATRIOT FRONT FOR SEVERAL MONTHS.

I DOCUMENTED EVERYTHING WHILE HE PLAYED THE PART OF NEO NAZI GOING OUT WITH THESE PEOPLE TRAINING TO, YOU KNOW, TRAINING IN VIOLENCE BASICALLY AND THEY SOUGHT HIM OUT BECAUSE OF HIS MILITARY EXPERIENCE AND I GAVE ALL OF OUR EVIDENCE TO BUZZ FEED AND AN ARTICLE CAME OUT AND OUR OBJECTIVE WAS TO EXPOSE AMERICANS TO THE FACT THERE IS A RISING ORGANIZED GROUP OF FASCISTS IN THIS COUNTRY AND I GOT TO LEARN FROM INSIDE THAT IT IS A REAL THREAT AND I GOT TO LEARN HOW THEY CREATE PROPAGANDA IN THE CAMPAIGNS AND HOW THEY RADICALIZE AVERAGE PEOPLE AND HOW THEY REINTERPRET REALITY AND USE IT TO PLANT SEEDS OF HATRED ALL AROUND THIS COUNTRY.

AND SINCE THEN, I’VE — YOU KNOW, JANUARY 6th WAS JUST MONTHS AFTER THAT I HAD BEEN INFILTRATING UNLAWFUL MILITIAS LIKE THE 3% SECURITY FORCE AND HANDING OFF STUFF TO THE FBI BEFORE THE INSURRECTION WHEN THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT THINGS LIKE ASSAULTING THE CAPITAL AND CAME TO REALIZE I CAN’T DO THIS ALONE AND THE EVIDENCE THAT I’M GIVING TO THE POLICE IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH SO TASK FORCE BUTLER INSTITUTE WAS FOUNDED SO THAT VETERANS CAN WORK ON MISSIONS TO TAKE DOWN EXTREMISTS ORGANIZATIONS LIKE PATRIOTS AND IN SEPTEMBER WE PUBLISHED THE FIRST SUPPORT PROJECT BLACKLISTED WHICH WAS BASED ON THE CHARLOTTESVILLE LAWSUIT, THE LEGAL COMPLAINT AND USED THAT AS A TEMPLATE HOW SOMEONE COLD HOLD PLAINTIFFS OR DISTRICT ATTORNEYS COLD HOLD PATRIOTS ACCOUNTABLE IN A COURT OF LAW TO DISMANTLE THE HATE GROUP TO MAKE IT SO THEY COULD NO LONGER CAUSE HARM TO COMMUNITIES AND THE MODEL IS EFFECTIVE.

WITHIN WEEKS THE REPORT WAS USED FOR A LAWSUIT IN VIRGINIA AGAINST SEVERAL MEMBERS OF THE PATRIOT FRONT INCLUDING THE LEADERSHIP AND WE’LL CONTINUE THIS FIGHT.

VETERANS WILL CONTINUE SERVING THIS COUNTRY WITH GATHERING EVIDENCE OF CRIMINAL ACTIVITY AND SHOWING HOW PEOPLE ARE RADICALIZED AND WORKING WITH JOURNALISTS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT AND MAKING SURE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE THREAT AND THAT THOSE POSING THE THREAT ARE HELD LEGALLY ACCOUNTABLE.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE TYPE OF DANGER THAT YOU AND YOUR FAMILY HAVE NOW FACED BECAUSE OF THIS WORK.

SO NEO NAZI SHOWED UP AT MY MOTHER’S HOUSE AND DROPPED OFF A THREAT THAT INCLUDED A BOOK OF A MOTHER THAT GOES MISSING.

IT HAD A PICTURE OF HITLER AND ON THE BACK A STICKER THAT SAID ANTIFA PLUS COOPERATION SO ESTABLISHING I’M BEING TARGETED BECAUSE OF MY LAST NAME IS SOUNDING JEWISH.

THAT’S TWO PROJECTED CLASSES, RELIGIOUS AND ETHNIC MINORITIES.

THAT WASN’T ENOUGH FOR AN ARREST TO HAPPEN.

THAT PERSON AFTER THE FBI PERSON AND LET ME KNOW THAT HE KNEW AND THE PICTURE OF EMPTY SHOES THAT WERE MURDERED IN THE HOLOCAUST.

THAT MAN SENT TWO THREATS.

HE STILL CONTINUES TO THREATEN MY FAMILY.

HIS ASSOCIATES HAVE POSTED PICTURES OF MY FAMILY ONLINE AND POSTED VOTER RECORDS TO REVEAL WHERE I LIVE AND I’M RECEIING THREATENING PACKAGES AND MAIL.

NO ONE HAS BEEN ARRESTED YET.

WE RECENTLY SAW CHARGES BROUGHT AGAINST A NEO NAZI AND HIS GIRLFRIEND FOR PLOTTING ESSENTIALLY TO ATAKE THE ELECTRICAL GRIDS AROUND THE BALTIMORE AREA, A CITY WITH A HIGH MINORITY POPULATION.

AND I WONDER IF YOU HAVE ANY INSIGHT FROM THE CONVERSATIONS YOU’VE BEEN PRIVY TO HOW THESE ORGANIZATIONS ARE PLANNING AND WHAT THEY’RE THINKING.

ARE WE LIKELY TO SEE MORE OF THESE ATTACKS?

NEO NAZI ORGANIZATIONS, FASTEST ORGANIZATIONS, ANTI-GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATIONS HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT ATTACKING CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE FOR DECADES.

THE ELECTRICAL GRID IN OUR MOD — MODERN WORLD IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER.

WHEN POWER GETS SHUT OFF, PEOPLE IN HOSPITALS, PEOPLE WITH MEDICAL EQUIPMENT AT HOME CAN DIE AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THAT.

AND THE GOAL OF NEO NAZIS AND ANTI-GOVERNMENT EXTREMISTS ISN’T ONLY TO CREATE A WIDE STATE BUT CHAOS NECESSARY TO BUILD THE FASTEST MOVEMENT.

THEY WANT TO CONVINCE AMERICANS THAT THEIR GOVERNMENT CANNOT PROTECT THEM SO THAT AMERICANS START TO CALL OUT FOR SOMETHING ELSE.

THEY ARE GOING TO DO EVERYTHING TO CONVINCE AMERICA DEMOCRACY ISN’T WORKING AND WE’RE THERE TO DO THE OPPOSITE.

WE’RE THERE TO DOCUMENT THIS CRIMINAL ACTIVITY AND DOCUMENT THEM SHARING INFORMATION AND DRAWING UP PLANS TO ATTACK POWER GRIDS AND MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN MAKE SURE THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT PROTECTS THOSE FACIIIES AND INTERCEPT THEM BEFORE A TERRORIST ATTACK HAPPENS.

NOW TO BE CLEAR, WE HAVEN’T DONE ANYTHING LIKE THAT YET BUT I BELIEVE THAT WE’VE GOT THAT POTENTIAL.

IN A WAY, I HEAR YOU TAKING BACK THE IDEA OF ANTI FASCISM, WHICH OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS IS A SHORT HAND TO ANTIFA AND HIGH HYPERBOLE AND EVERYTHING TO THE LEFT BUT REALLY THE BIG FIRST SET OF ANTI FASCISTS WHERE THE U.S. MILITARY AND AMERICAN GOVERNANCE.

THE U.S. MILITARY IS THE ORIGINAL ANTI FASTEST ORGANIZATION.

THE MILITARY IS THE ANTI FACTIOUS ORGANIZATION OF THE WORLD.

THAT’S A PIECE OF AMERICAN HISTORY PEOPLE SHOULD REMEMBER.

I USE TERMS LIKE NEO NAZI AND ANTI FASCIST.

I’M USING THESE TERMS CAREFULLY BECAUSE THESE WORDS HAVE MEANING.

WE’RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO CHANGE THIS BUBBLE THAT’S CONVINCED A THIRD OF AMERICA THAT ANTIFA IS THE GREATEST THREAT TO DEMOCRACY.

I HAVE NO INTEREST IN CHANGING MINDS.

WHAT TASK FORCE BUTLER IS ABOUT IS GOING AFTER THE REAL THREAT AND SHOWING IT THROUGH OUR WORK, NOT USING HYPERBOLE BUT WRITING REPORTS THAT, YOU KNOW, TELL STORIES, THAT DO THE ANALYSIS AND PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE SO THAT IT’S NOT JUST LAWYERS IN A COURTROOM WHO UNDERSTAND THIS PROBLEM BUT IT’S JOURNALISTS AND IT’S THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WHO CAN UNDERSTAND THAT DA MOBLG SEE IS — DEMOCRACY IS NOT LOST AND IF WE SIT BACK AND IMPOSE COST ON BAD ACTORS BREAKING THE LAW, WE CAN START TO FEEL BETTER ABOUT OUR DEMOCRACY.

VETERAN CHRIS GOLDSMITH, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU.