{"id":9108,"date":"2011-12-02T15:30:20","date_gmt":"2011-12-02T20:30:20","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/pbs-wnet-preprod.digi-producers.pbs.org\/wnet\/religionandethics\/?p=9108"},"modified":"2013-05-10T15:20:23","modified_gmt":"2013-05-10T19:20:23","slug":"july-8-2011-heaven-and-hell","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/pbs-wnet-preprod.digi-producers.pbs.org\/wnet\/religionandethics\/2011\/12\/02\/july-8-2011-heaven-and-hell\/9108\/","title":{"rendered":" Heaven and Hell"},"content":{"rendered":"

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KIM LAWTON<\/strong>, correspondent: For millennia, people have being trying to imagine what happens after death. Is there a heaven? Who gets in? And what happens to those who don\u2019t?<\/p>\n

LISA MILLER<\/strong>: Everybody dies. And we want to hope that the people we love we\u2019ll see again, and we want to hope that our own identities and our own consciousness and maybe even our own bodies exist in some other realm after we\u2019re gone from this earth.<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: Books trying to provide answers to these age-old questions continue to be bestsellers. One of them\u2014Love Wins<\/em> by Michigan megachurch pastor Rob Bell\u2014has ignited an intense new debate, particularly among evangelical Christians.<\/p>\n

REV. ROB BELL<\/strong>: A lot of people, the conception they were handed of the Christian faith is that you go around making judgments: So-and-so we know for sure is burning forever in that place. You don\u2019t know that. That\u2019s speculation.<\/p>\n

\"post02-heavenandhell\"PROFESSOR MARY VANDEN BERG<\/strong> (Assistant Professor of Christian Theology, Calvin Theological Seminary): If you reject the kingdom of God, it doesn\u2019t really look all that good for you.<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: According to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, an overwhelming majority of Americans believe in life after death. Seventy-four percent believe in heaven, and almost 60 percent believe in hell. A majority of Americans also believe that many religions can lead to eternal life. The exception: Evangelicals, who are more likely to say that theirs is the one true faith that leads to eternal life.<\/p>\n

Journalist Lisa Miller is author of the book Heaven: Our Enduring Fascination with the Afterlife<\/em>.<\/p>\n

MILLER<\/strong>: It\u2019s a mistake to think you can even talk about God in the Western tradition without talking about heaven, right? How you get to heaven, the question of salvation is central to Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: Evangelicals have been especially certain about their answers, with many saying that people must accept Jesus as their personal savior.<\/p>\n

\"post08-heavenandhell\"REV. BILLY GRAHAM<\/strong>: Jesus said there are two roads in life. One is the broad road that leads to destruction and judgment and hell.\u00a0The other is a narrow road that leads to heaven and paradise.<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: Mary Vanden Berg is assistant professor of systematic theology at Calvin Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.<\/p>\n

VANDEN BERG<\/strong>: There is one sure way to know that you will spend eternal life with God, in the presence of God, and that is through faith in Jesus Christ.<\/p>\n

BELL<\/strong>:\u00a0Gandhi is in hell? He is? And somebody knows this for sure? Will only a few select people make it to heaven, and will billions and billions of people burn forever in hell?<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: Bell offers a more expansive view. He\u2019s pastor of the nondenominational Mars Hill Bible Church just outside Grand Rapids, which has some 10,000 weekly attenders. He\u2019s also a popular speaker whose videos have a huge international following among younger evangelicals.<\/p>\n

BELL<\/strong>: For me, interacting with countless people over the years who literally are carrying around an image, God is not good and God is not good because my grandmother died and at the funeral the pastor wanted us all to know for sure that my grandma was burning in torment forever.<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: Bell points to Scriptures where Jesus says he is restoring all things and drawing all people to himself.<\/p>\n

\"post01-heavenandhell\"BELL<\/strong>: And Jesus tells stories in which the key character doesn\u2019t give up on whatever is lost, and I think we should take that seriously. I don\u2019t know what God has in mind, but I do know that this story that Jesus tells causes us to pause before we make any of those sorts of judgments. Be very careful, because God may be up to something way, way bigger than you\u2019ve ever been able to comprehend.<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: Heaven, Bell says, is not a far-away place but a renewal of the earth that begins here and now. Bell believes the spectrum of people who will be part of it is \u201cwide and expansive.\u201d Hell, he says, is the consequence of choosing not to be part of God\u2019s massive embrace.<\/p>\n

BELL<\/strong>: God is throwing a party and everybody\u2019s invited, but if you don\u2019t want to come, you are given that option.<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: And in one of the most controversial parts of his book, Bell takes issue with the traditional Christian teaching that death ends any opportunity to make that choice.<\/p>\n

BELL<\/strong>: So a seventeen-year-old atheist dies. God will punish this seventeen-year-old atheist forever? Yup. So 17 million years from now God will be tormenting and punishing this seventeen-year-old atheist? Yup. And this is okay with God? Yup, that\u2019s how it is. And for me it just seems like, I don\u2019t know, that doesn\u2019t\u2014it\u2019s not compelling. That doesn\u2019t seem to be what Jesus was talking about.<\/p>\n

VANDEN BERG<\/strong>: Maybe we can think about those things, and maybe we can wonder about those things, but the Bible\u2019s pretty clear that when the end comes that\u2019s the end. You don\u2019t have a second chance. Now might there be? Could God do that? I don\u2019t know of any theologian that would say God couldn\u2019t. God can do whatever God wants to do, but what does the Bible say? The biblical text doesn\u2019t indicate this at all.<\/p>\n

\"post07-heavenandhell\"LAWTON<\/strong>: Vanden Berg says while she believes Bell raises some interesting questions, she is concerned that he is lifting out a few particular verses without taking the full biblical narrative into account.<\/p>\n

VANDEN BERG<\/strong>: I\u2019m uncomfortable with the way he frames things in the book that make it sound like sort of like don\u2019t worry about it because it\u2019s just going to be okay, and I\u2019m not convinced that the Bible says that. I\u2019m fairly convinced that the Bible says if you reject me, I\u2019ll reject you.<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: Some evangelicals say Bell doesn\u2019t give enough importance to the passages where biblical authors describe God\u2019s judgment toward sin.<\/p>\n

JUSTIN TAYLOR<\/strong> (The Gospel Coalition): When they talk about God\u2019s great love, it\u2019s always set against the backdrop of God\u2019s righteousness, God\u2019s wrath, God\u2019s holiness.<\/p>\n

BELL<\/strong>: I think what happens for many people is they heard about the judgment before the love. But if you start with the love and the judgment flows out of that, God\u2019s love is for us to flourish in God\u2019s good world. For us to flourish in God\u2019s good world, judgments have to be made. Well, that then… now that puts judgment in its proper place.<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: Many evangelicals have been severe in their condemnation of Bell. Some even called him a heretic.<\/p>\n

TAYLOR<\/strong>: We care about people, and people who have grown up in the church, who have sung these same songs, who are being won over by somebody who has produced great videos and is a good communicator but is ultimately teaching a false Gospel.<\/p>\n

\"post06-heavenandhell\"MILLER<\/strong>: What made people mad about Rob Bell was that he calls himself a conservative evangelical, and he believes in a much looser idea of heaven and salvation than conservative evangelicals traditionally believe in. So if he had called himself an Episcopalian, for example, nobody would have batted an eye.<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: Miller says the conversation itself isn\u2019t new, but the fact that it\u2019s taking place so openly within evangelicalism is.<\/p>\n

MILLER<\/strong>: This is a radical upheaval of that entire worldview. Then what does that do to your doctrine, to your creeds, to your world view, to your, to your mission for evangelism? What do you need to teach people if they\u2019re going to get in anyway? It\u2019s a real theological struggle.<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: Miller says Bell has particular resonance among young evangelicals who increasingly have friends from different faith traditions, and that\u2019s precisely what troubles conservatives.<\/p>\n

REV. ALBERT MOHLER JR<\/strong> (President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary): And I think that\u2019s why we have to talk about this, because we\u2019re very concerned about the loss of the Gospel. Not just getting a doctrine wrong, but the loss of the Gospel in this.<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: In June, the Southern Baptist Convention voted to reaffirm its belief in the reality of hell as an \u201ceternal, conscious punishment\u201d for those who don\u2019t accept Jesus.<\/p>\n

Bell says he wants people to see that Jesus\u2019 ultimate message was about love, not just avoiding hell.<\/p>\n

BELL<\/strong>: Jesus didn\u2019t come along and say, \u201cYou don\u2019t want to be a part of that thing, do you?\u201d No, he came along and said, \u201cTrust me. Something big is going down. Here, here\u2019s a taste.\u201d Ah. People thought it was amazing.<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: He says he\u2019s not bothered by those who accuse him of inciting a dangerous conversation.<\/p>\n

BELL<\/strong>: It seems to me like the church would be the place that would lead the way in having dangerous conversations. I mean, isn\u2019t that what faith is?<\/p>\n

LAWTON<\/strong>: And the conversation isn\u2019t ending anytime soon. Several more books about heaven and hell are being released over the next few weeks.<\/p>\n

I\u2019m Kim Lawton in Grand Rapids.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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